Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:56:32 -0500
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: [Regalia] What I like about YEW

I sent this message to the list's old address, but because of the
server problems, I guess it didn't get through.  So here it is again.

YEW is the Book of Current Focus, right?  Nobody else has said
anything about it yet, so I might as well start.

One thing I find interesting about the book's structure is that,
pretty early on, Prince Marvel and Nerle have some rather lengthy
stays in Spor and Twi. 

In both of these cases, as well as the encounter with Wul-Takim and his bandits, Marvel ends
up reforming the villains, and they become allies.  After leaving Twi,
however, future encounters are brief, and there's no reformation on the part of the
remaining villains.  Kwytoffle (who, as a humbug magician, comes
across as an unsympathetic counterpart to the Wizard of Oz) is
flogged, and the Red Rogue trapped in a mirror for a century.  Even
though the Red Rogue has an interesting origin story, I'd say the
story probably climaxes in Twi.

Yew, like Oz, is divided into four countries with another smaller one
in the center.  It kind of seems like Baum, who obviously liked this
set-up, decided on it before writing any of the story; and then, since
he knew he'd most likely never use Yew again, felt it necessary to add
in visits to all four countries.  While the characters' stay in Plenta
is said to take place over the course of "several happy weeks," only a
few pages of text are devoted to it.  Auriel and Dawna both have
villains to vanquish, but they're out of the way pretty quickly.

With the tyrants out of the way (either deposed or reformed) at the
end of Marvel's year as a human, a stable political situation seems to
have been instituted.  In a way, that makes it disappointing that,
after a mere century, "[g]reat cities had been built and great
kingdoms established," suggesting that the political structure has
radically changed.  Perhaps it can also be seen as Prince Marvel's
adventures having paved the way for civilization on Yew.

The idea that the fairy who becomes the Prince still has magic powers
while in human form, despite claiming to want "to live a short while
as the earth people do," seems like kind of a cheat.  On the other
hand, it gives Baum a chance to give his leading man some interesting
powers.  The episode in Terribus' castle reminds me of the encounter
with Zog in SEA FAIRIES (and, to a lesser extent, King Rinkitink's
experiences in the Nome Kingdom in RINKITINK), in that a villain keeps
throwing physical and magical hazards at the protagonists, but none of
them have any effect.

Nathan

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:55:19 -0600
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] What I like about YEW

Thank heavens! I was really missing the list, and I was so looking forward
to talking about THE ENCHANTED ISLAND OF YEW. Perhaps because of the
weeks-long delay, we can push back the list of topics a month? E.g. YEW will
be covered from February--mid-March. Also, I have a request: Could we
discuss the book by chapter rather than at random? It's entirely up to the
collective consesus, of course.

Chris Gembara

>From: regalia-request at pumperdink.org
>To: teine_sionnic at hotmail.com
>Subject: Welcome to the "Regalia" mailing list
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:15:15 -0700
>
>Regalia is BACK.  And it's MOVED.

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:44:19 -0600
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] What I like about YEW

>With the tyrants out of the way (either deposed or reformed) at the
>end of Marvel's year as a human, a stable political situation seems to
>have been instituted.  In a way, that makes it disappointing that,
>after a mere century, "[g]reat cities had been built and great
>kingdoms established," suggesting that the political structure has
>radically changed.  Perhaps it can also be seen as Prince Marvel's
>adventures having paved the way for civilization on Yew.
>
>Nathan

That's an interesting point, Nathan. I never thought of that before. In a
similar fashion, Santa Claus' introduction into the world of men made it a
more civilized, humanistic place. People seemed to mature and become more
altruistic with the invention of gift-giving and toys.

Chris Gembara

Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:56:15 -0500
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] What I like about YEW

Nathan DeHoff wrote:
> With the tyrants out of the way (either deposed or reformed) at the
> end of Marvel's year as a human, a stable political situation seems to
> have been instituted.  In a way, that makes it disappointing that,
> after a mere century, "[g]reat cities had been built and great
> kingdoms established," suggesting that the political structure has
> radically changed.  Perhaps it can also be seen as Prince Marvel's
> adventures having paved the way for civilization on Yew.

Baum was definitely playing with the theme of time passing in YEW. It
starts by establishing a limited time for Prince Marvel to travel the
island, and it ends by jumping one hundred years in time to see how the
world had changed. I don't think he did those things in any other
fantasy novels.

In this period, Baum tended to end his fantasy novels by commenting
briefly about how the young protagonists grew up and/or society became
more civilized. In YEW, ZIXI, SANTA CLAUS, and JOHN DOUGH that's
explicit, and even in LAND there's a hint of time passing in Baum's last
comments about Jack Pumpkinhead. When he began to
plan sequels with
OZMA, he dropped that approach for obvious reasons, and also
conveniently forgot about it when he wanted to bring Bud, Fluff, and
Chick to Oz.

> The idea that the fairy who becomes the Prince still has magic powers
> while in human form, despite claiming to want "to live a short while
> as the earth people do," seems like kind of a cheat.

And it very quickly removes much of the suspense of the episodes. Prince
Marvel is so much more powerful than anyone else, is immune even to the
magic mirror, and eventually is allied with the strongest forces on the
island. Gee, who do you think will win?

I think Baum shifted his attention to Nerle and how
he grows up instead,
because that's still an open question.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:01:00 -0500
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Chapter-by-chapter discussion of YEW?

On 2/27/07, Chris Gembara <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thank heavens! I was really missing the list, and I was so looking forward
> to talking about THE ENCHANTED ISLAND OF YEW. Perhaps because of the
> weeks-long delay, we can push back the list of topics a month? E.g. YEW will
> be covered from February--mid-March. Also, I have a request: Could we
> discuss the book by chapter rather than at random? It's entirely up to the
> collective consesus, of course.

Although I already posted a general message on the book, I wouldn't
mind a chapter-by-chapter discussion.  Some of the chapters ARE
awfully short and uneventful, though.  Really, I wouldn't recommend
waiting for a consensus.  If you have chapter-by-chapter comments, go
ahead and post them, and you'll probably generate some discussion.

Nathan

Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:46:08 -0600
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Regalia] YEW: Once Upon A Time

I'll begin the discussion of YEW with the very beginning--the introductory
chapter that mentions how the world is today compared to how it was in
yesteryears. Even at the turn of the last century, Baum successfully
predicted the dependence of humankind on modern marvels and machines.
Inventions like the telephone, the telegram, the car, and the airplane were
still newborns, yet Baum seemed to know how much of an impact they would
create on our society. Unlike many of his peers, he didn't see a lot of good
coming from these inventions. As he writes in the first chapter of YEW,
people need to take the time away from technology and focus on the simpler
things in life. Things such as enjoying nature and working with our own
hands. By focusing on the simpler things, we come to know and recognize the
supernatural world, especially the fairies. Notice, too, that even though
not many people at the time knew what ryls and knooks were, Baum mentions
them in this chapter.

This chapter, and the whole book really, reminds me a lot of SANTA. It's
more of a traditional myth or fairy tale, one from long long ago and far far
away. It reminds us of the times when society was smaller and people were
more in tune with the natural world. Each story, and each introductory
chapter too, wonders what the modern world will bring, what effect the modern
advances will have on people. I think Baum already knew the answer, and it
brought him to tears as to what would happen. People would abuse the tools
they have been given. Baum knew that even fairy tale lands could be subject
to modern technology, as he shows in the last chapter. Maybe this is the
reason why he cut off Merryland and Oz and Mo from the outside world--to
preserve their beauty and wonder.

At the end of the chapter, Baum asks us to take time to renew our wonder
with the world. And also to realize that no matter how amazing new-fangled
technology may seem, the natural world is always full of wonders more
astonishing than anything we can imagine. If only we would look and listen.

Chris Gembara

Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:56:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel Doherty <janitor_stage_two at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW: Once Upon A Time

Chris Gembara <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Even at the turn of the last century, Baum successfully
> predicted the dependence of humankind on modern marvels and machines.
> Inventions like the telephone, the telegram, the car, and the airplane were
> still newborns, yet Baum seemed to know how much of an impact they would
> create on our society. Unlike many of his peers, he didn't see a lot of good
> coming from these inventions. As he writes in the first chapter of YEW,
> people need to take the time away from technology and focus on the simpler
> things in life. Things such as enjoying nature and working with our own
> hands.

I have to disagree with you here. I'll grant that Baum probably felt this way,
but I don't think it was "unlike his peers". J. M. Barrie and Lewis
Carroll both stressed that one must get away from civilization to meet fairies
in their respective books _Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens_ (1906), and _Sylvie
and Bruno_ (1889 & 1893).

Likewise, Jerome K. Jerome in _Three Men in a Boat_ (1889) describes
civilization disparagingly and expresses the desire to return to a simpler time
in both his interest in history and his interest in boating.
Jules Verne wrote (but never published) _Paris in the 20th Century_ in 1863,
depicting a dystopian future with skyscrapers, gas automobiles, high-speed
trains, calculators, a worldwide communications network, and criminal execution
by electric charge. He was told it was too depressing to publish, and that it
would hurt his career.

It was a time of invention and discovery, and I don't think Baum was the only
one who resented it.

Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:16:53 -0600
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW: Once Upon A Time

>From: Daniel Doherty <janitor_stage_two at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: "A discussion,idea and scholarly list for fans of Oz"
><regalia at pumperdink.org>
>To: "A discussion,idea and scholarly list for fans of Oz"
><regalia at pumperdink.org>
>Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW: Once Upon A Time
>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:56:52 -0800 (PST)
>
>I have to disagree with you here. I'll grant that Baum probably felt this
>way, but I don't think it was "unlike his peers". J. M. Barrie and Lewis
>Carroll both stressed that one must get away from civilization to meet
>fairies in their respective books _Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens_ (1906),
>and _Sylvie and Bruno_ (1889 & 1893).
>Likewise, Jerome K. Jerome in _Three Men in a Boat_ (1889) describes
>civilization disparagingly and expresses the desire to return to a simpler
>time in both his interest in history and his interest in boating.
>Jules Verne wrote (but never published) _Paris in the 20th Century_ in
>1863, depicting a dystopian future with skyscrapers, gas automobiles,
>high-speed trains, calculators, a worldwide communications network, and
>criminal execution by electric charge. He was told it was too depressing to
>publish, and that it would hurt his career.
>It was a time of invention and discovery, and I don't think Baum was the
>only one who resented it.

You're right, perhaps I did make an overstatement. I should have known
better about his contemporary authors. I was more referring to society at
large as being the ones who thought that nothing bad could happen with the
new technologies. We know that even Baum praised new inventions
occasionally, in his "Our Landlady" (sp?) articles and his writings on the
White City of the World's Fair in Chicago. He was a fan of electricity and
how it effected things, such as in MASTER KEY, or even simply his insertion
of electric lights in the Emerald City and other fairytale
lands. But, anyway, Jules Verne was right on with his description of the twentieth
century--all those things came about before the millenium.  I wonder if he
had his own time machine and used it...

Chris Gembara

Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:28:29 -0500
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW: Once Upon A Time

Chris Gembara wrote:
> Even at the turn of the last century, Baum successfully
> predicted the dependence of humankind on modern marvels and machines.
> Inventions like the telephone, the telegram, the car, and the airplane were
> still newborns, yet Baum seemed to know how much of an impact they would
> create on our society. Unlike many of his peers, he didn't see a lot of good
> coming from these inventions. As he writes in the first chapter of YEW,
> people need to take the time away from technology and focus on the simpler 
> things in life.

I think this analysis reads too much into what Baum wrote:
++++++
In the old days, when the world was young, there were no automobiles
nor flying-machines to make one wonder; nor were there railway trains,
nor telephones, nor mechanical inventions of any sort to keep people
keyed up to a high pitch of excitement.  Men and women lived simply and
quietly.  They were Nature's children, and breathed fresh air into
their lungs instead of smoke and coal gas; and tramped through green
meadows and deep forests instead of riding in street cars; and went to
bed when it grew dark and rose with the sun--which is vastly different
from the present custom.  Having no books to read they told their
adventures to one another and to their little ones; and the stories
were handed down from generation to generation and reverently believed.

Those who peopled the world in the old days, having nothing but their
hands to depend on, were to a certain extent helpless, and so the
fairies were sorry for them and ministered to their wants patiently
and frankly, often showing themselves to those they befriended.
++++++

Baum didn't write prescriptively, saying that "people need to take the
time away from technology." Rather, he was descriptive, contrasting the
past and present with relatively few value judgments.

Yes, Baum wrote of "smoke and coal gas" instead of "fresh air." But most
of his contrasts don't come with an explicit value judgment. Is
"tramping" through a deep forest better than "riding in street cars"?  Is
a machine "to make one wonder" not wonderful? Is "having no books"
superior to having this very book?

If we come to this passage with an ideology that living "simply and
quietly" is better than being in "a high pitch of excitement," then
clearly the older lifestyle seems better. But does the text actually say
it is? Or does it simply say the societies are very different?

I think Baum was writing about a trade-off, reserving judgment (at least
here) about what lifestyle might be superior. As he often expressed when
comparing magic and modern technology, some inventions seem more
advanced than enchantments: "so many curious inventions of men have come
into use that the wonders of Fairyland are somewhat tame beside them."

As for a "dependence of humankind on modern marvels and machines,"
Baum's main statement of dependence in this passage is his description
of our ancestors as "to a certain extent helpless," and reliant on
sympathetic fairies for aid. Humans have simply exchanged one source of
dependency for another: instead of relying on magical aid, they rely on
technology of their own invention.

And is that necessarily wrong? One of the hallmarks of Baum's fantasy
writing (more evident in the Oz books than in YEW) was incorporating
elements of modern American life into the fairy world.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

L. Frank Baum, Fanny Cory

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:22:44 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] yew

I think I agree partly with J.L. Bell and partly with Chris Gembara on the
ecological stance implied by the opening of "Island of Yew." As J.L.  said,
Baum isn't saying directly that old non-technological ways are better than
new technology, and is saying directly that there are things of "wonder"
about new technology; but, as Chris said, the passage does imply that
there's a lot getting lost that would be worth preserving. J.L. suggested,
for instance, that
> "tramping" through a deep forest < is by implication no
> better than "riding in street cars"? <

Actually, remembering Baum's description of Burzee in "Santa Claus," I
suspect he would feel that tramping through woods is better than riding
street cars -- particularly when the phrase "through green
meadows" is put back in with the deep forests to describe where people might
be tramping. He's putting about as much stress on the trade-off between the
two ways of life, but he's also pretty clearly regretting what's getting
lost. As J.L. commented, this stance isn't surprising for the period -- 
there were a lot of people who shared this kind of concern over the changes
coming in with new technologies.

I think what I find most interesting in "Yew" is the pairing of Prince
Marvel and Nerle, both of them bored with their lives of power and pleasure
and wanting to experience danger and excitement (and pain, in Nerle's case).
Prince Marvel's longing for a year of mortality isn't directly criticized by
the narrative as folly, the way Nerle's longing for discomfort is ridiculed,
but I think at some level both are being criticized -- the fairy at the end
of the book, when she gets her immortality back, seems to be happy to be
herself again. J.L.'s & Nathan's criticism that the book is duller than it
might be because Prince Marvel actually still has a lot of fairy powers and
is never in any real danger -- I think that's part of what Baum is exploring
in the characterization. The fairy has gotten close enough to danger to
realize that she doesn't need it, as Nerle has gotten close enough to pain
to realize that he should be grateful for his easy life. (Might be reading
too much into the story -- but maybe not.) But to some extent, the story is
really a bunch of separate adventures, exploring separate ideas. The kind of
question of what difference physical appearance might make in moral
character that turns up with King Terribus is quite different from the
question of what difference identity makes that turns up with the
Twi-people.

(By the way, we had a discussion of the pronunciation of Twi some time back,
and I think came to a consensus that although ordinarily in English one
might expect Ki-Ki to be pronounced to rhyme with Fifi, it's more likely in
this case a long i to rhyme in High Ki and with "Twi" as in
"twilight.")

Ruth Berman

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:51:50 -0600
From: "Ivan Van Laningham" <ivanlan at pauahtun.org>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] yew

A couple of thoughts on YEW:

I just finished reading the BoW paperback copy, with George O'Connor
illustrations.  While I thought the story was OK, it suffered from
lack of focus:  too many episodes, that, as Ruth pointed out, share
very little but the fairy prince and his sidekick.  In WWIZ, for
example, a book with an episodic structure, the focus of the plot is
for Dorothy to get home.  In YEW, however, the focus is for the fairy
to take the form of a mortal prince for a year and have adventures;
those adventures have as much life and sparkle as any canned moral
lesson.

Marvel and Nerle never really risk anything, but go around setting
things right according to their views.  You know darn well that when
their heads seem to be at risk, Marvel's fairy powers would have
protected them even if Terribus and the other rescuers hadn't shown up
in the nick of time.

The most interesting characters in the book, on my view, are the High
Ki of Twi after they become separate characters, and that lasts only a
few pages before Marvel puts them back together again.

And those illos suck.  They're worse than Dirk's for HIDDEN VALLEY.

Metta,
Ivan
--
Ivan Van Laningham
God N Locomotive Works

Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours

Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:17:01 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW

Ruth wrote:
> I think I agree partly with J.L. Bell and partly with Chris Gembara on the
> ecological stance implied by the opening of "Island of Yew." As J.L. said,
> Baum isn't saying directly that old non-technological ways are better than 
> new technology, and is saying directly that there are things of "wonder"
> about new technology; but, as Chris said, the passage does imply that
> there's a lot getting lost that would be worth preserving. J.L. suggested, 
> for instance, that
>> "tramping" through a deep forest < is by implication no
>> better than "riding in street cars"? <
>
> Actually, remembering Baum's description of Burzee in "Santa Claus," I
> suspect he would feel that tramping through woods is better than riding
> street cars -- particularly when the phrase "through green
> meadows" is put back in with the deep forests to describe where people might
> be tramping.

A lot of my question rested on that verb "tramping". It seems to connote
effort, and deprivation, and not much care for what one is tramping on.
But if the 1903 understanding of the word was different, then "tramping"
in nature could indeed have some good connotations to balance the ease
of "riding in streetcars." Overall, I still think that Baum was writing
about an inevitable trade-off between "civilization" and a magical
world, but not a clear preference for one over the other.

> I think what I find most interesting in "Yew" is the pairing of Prince
> Marvel and Nerle, both of them bored with their lives of power and pleasure
> and wanting to experience danger and excitement (and pain, in Nerle's case).

Yes, that's an interesting parallel. And perhaps a commentary on boys,
particularly adolescent boys. Dorothy likes adventures while she's on
them, but in Baum's she doesn't really seek them out: she just doesn't
worry about putting herself in danger when there's a reason. I suspect
she'd find Prince Marvel's attitude odd and Nerle's unhealthy, even as
she would agree that having adventures is fun.

> The fairy has gotten close enough to danger to
> realize that she doesn't need it, as Nerle has gotten close enough to pain
> to realize that he should be grateful for his easy life.

Unfortunately, the fairy doesn't get very close to real danger at all,
it soon becomes clear. Prince Marvel is nervous during his first
adventure, with the brigands, almost like a kid going to a new school
for the first time. But pretty quickly he gains too much confidence in
his own powers for us to worry about him.

It might have been a more interesting book if in the last adventure
Prince Marvel was overcome in some magical way precisely because he was
actually a fairy, and the rest of the group had to rescue him. Then
their individual talents could have shone while he truly experienced
danger.

Out of the several psychologically twisted characters in YEW, I think
Nerle is the most interesting for me. Some of his remarks about wanting
to feel pain are still so straightforwardly masochistic as to make me
blink, even after multiple readings. In an article about YEW I wrote for
the BAUM BUGLE a few years ago, I noted how Nerle and Baum both seemed
to equate his physical suffering with growing to manhood--though once he
actually proves himself as Prince Marvel's squire he can put away
adolescent masochism.

Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> I just finished reading the BoW paperback copy, with George O'Connor
> illustrations.  While I thought the story was OK, it suffered from
> lack of focus:  too many episodes, that, as Ruth pointed out, share
> very little but the fairy prince and his sidekick.

I wonder now if Baum hoped to see this book serialized. He wrote ZIXI as
a serial for ST. NICHOLAS, the "Animal Fairy Tales" as a series for THE
DELINEATOR, and talked (probably a little bit later) with Edward Bok at
LADIES' HOME JOURNAL about writing a serial for that magazine, which
then had the largest circulation in America. There seems to have been a
lot more money in writing for magazines then.

But I doubt Baum would have structured YEW as a serial without a
contract for it in that form. It just seems to have come out
episodically, as many of his stories did, and we might not notice the
lumpiness if the central narrative were stronger than "Fairy in disguise
keeps fixing everything."

There's a slight sense of episodes building up as Marvel accumulates
more allies, to the point that by the end there are too many traveling
companions to fit comfortably into a picture. (Particularly considering
how some of those personalities have two bodies.)

One might well argue that Prince Marvel brings about the end of this
magical YEW, whether or not he intended to. By ridding the island of its
most terrible monarch, its worst thieves, and other villains, he may
have allowed "civilization" to flourish quickly. Which in turn,
according to the prologue, sent the fairies into hiding.

I presume that the kingdom of Twi remains intact behind its thorny
barrier, however, even as other, less magical parts of the island have
become civilized beyond the Red Rogue's recognition.

> And those illos suck.  They're worse than Dirk's for HIDDEN VALLEY.

The original illustrations have a delicate beauty that only the earliest
printings of YEW preserve. After a few years the publisher started
printing the illustrations in a badly registered two-color style--the
sort of "color" edition I have.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:02:04 -0600
From: Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan at pauahtun.org>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW

Hi All--

J. L. Bell wrote:
>
> The original illustrations have a delicate beauty that only the earliest
> printings of YEW preserve. After a few years the publisher started
> printing the illustrations in a badly registered two-color style--the
> sort of "color" edition I have.
>

Are any of them online anywhere?  Good illustrations can change one's
perceptions of quite ordinary books.  I've never seen them at all.

Metta,
Ivan
--
Ivan Van Laningham
God N Locomotive Works

Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours

Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:07:46 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW

Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
>> The original illustrations have a delicate beauty that only the earliest
>> printings of YEW preserve. After a few years the publisher started
>> printing the illustrations in a badly registered two-color style--the
>> sort of "color" edition I have.
>>
>
> Are any of them online anywhere?  Good illustrations can change one's 
> perceptions of quite ordinary books.  I've never seen them at all.

The autumn 2003 included some in color on the cover and, in black and
white, inside.

Prince Marvel's feminine side is quite apparent, which I understand is a
big different between the original art and the Books of Wonder edition.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 19:53:21 -0400
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] yew

On 3/15/07, Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan at pauahtun.org> wrote:
> Marvel and Nerle never really risk anything, but go around setting
> things right according to their views.  You know darn well that when
> their heads seem to be at risk, Marvel's fairy powers would have
> protected them even if Terribus and the other rescuers hadn't shown up
> in the nick of time.

Yes, considering how the fairy tells Seseley and her friends that "I
could change you into a fly, or a crocodile, or a bobolink, if I
wanted to," she could presumably have done the same to Terribus, the
High Ki, or the Red Rogue.  It seems that Marvel usually prefers to
choose a solution that she thinks will benefit the people the most in
the long run, as with the changing of Terribus' appearance and the
separation of the High Ki (although the latter turns out not to be as
beneficial as Marvel intends).

It does seem as if the Prince might not want to use any more magic
than necessary in a given situation.  When dealing with the robbers,
for instance, he uses cunning and force rather than magic.  The
battles in Spor are more urgent, so he uses more magic.  On the other
hand, he doesn't use any magic at all in deposing Kwytoffle, and his
intrinsic fairy powers protect him from the Red Rogue's mirrors.

Incidentally, at the end of Chapter 6, Marvel tells Nerle that "on the
day we part company I shall inform you who I am."  He's never actually
described in the text as doing so, though.  When he changes back into
his fairy form, Seseley and her two companions are still the only ones
who know his secret.

As far as the theme of old vs. new from the first chapter goes, it
does seem like Baum had a certain amount of fondness for both the old
ways and the new ones.  THE MASTER KEY has Baum exploring the wonders
of technology, yet Rob eventually decides that the world is not yet
ready for all of them.  The Oz books show similar devices (like the
Great Book of Records and the Square Meal Tablets) used in wiser ways,
but only by a select few characters.  And as advanced as Oz is in some
ways, Baum never brought in railroads or automobiles (although Neill
eventually introduced the latter).  He definitely wasn't
anti-technology, but he does seem to have had some concern as to the
direction the world was beginning to take.

Nathan

Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:13:23 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] conference and yew

"J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net> wrote:
> A lot of my question [on Baum's "Yew" attitude to technology vs. "nature"]
> rested on that verb "tramping". It seems to connote effort, and
> deprivation, and not much care for what one is tramping on.<

Well, tramping certainly can mean walking with some difficulty, but it can also mean "hiking" (I see by
a quick dictionary check), which can mean walking for enjoyment, so it's not all that clear where Baum
is going in juxtaposing tramping in forests and green meadows (phrase with a slight suggestion of Psalm 23)
vs. "riding in streetcars." He could have been going in two directions at once with the contrast.

Ruth Berman

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:09:18 -0600
From: Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan at pauahtun.org>
Subject: [Regalia] Yew Illustrations

Hi All--
Just to let us all know what we're missing, I put up a scan of one of
the color illustrations from YEW.  Fanny Y. Cory is the illustrator.

http://www.pumperdink.org/BCF/TheEnchantedIslandOfYew.html

Frankly, I'm at a loss to explain why BoW would pay George O'Connor to
illustrate YEW when Fanny Cory's images are in the public domain.

Metta,
Ivan
--
Ivan Van Laningham
God N Locomotive Works

Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:53:07 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Yew Illustrations

Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> Frankly, I'm at a loss to explain why BoW would pay George O'Connor to
> illustrate YEW when Fanny Cory's images are in the public domain.

First, the Cory illustrations might not have reproduced well. The color
plates appear best in well preserved first editions, which of course are
hardest to obtain and take apart; after that, they were printed in two
colors only. And converting Cory's spectrum of colors to black and white
might have produced an unattractive wash of grays.

Second, Books of Wonder might have felt the original art looked too
old-fashioned for young readers today. (I don't recall any issues of
racial or ethnic caricatures in YEW, which some other Baum originals
suffer from.)

Finally, by including new art, Books of Wonder created an edition which
could gain new copyright protection. Anyone else could publish an
edition of the YEW text, as Wildside did, but no one else has an
illustrated edition.

The first copy of YEW I bought was one that Chris Dulabone put out
through Buckethead. It was the first reprint since the mid-1900s, so I
had to be grateful for that. But the cover image was Chris's own sketch
of King Terribus before Marvel changed him, looking as if it had been
drawn with a thick Sharpie. I can't look at it without shuddering.
Fortunately, Chris found better artists for his books later.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:05:27 EDT
From: WCam60 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Yew Illustrations

Another problem with the original Yew illustrations is that they were printed
under the text throughout the book. It's one of the stranger concepts, as
many of the black & white text illustrations (which were all printed in
orange) would certainly be nice to see without text all over them. At least in
Wonderful Wizard, this idea was limited to the background portions of illustrations,
not entire images.

I imagine it would be difficult to do an edition with these drawings unless
you happened to have access to all the original artwork, which may or may not
exist...I suppose it might be possible to scan and clean up the drawings from
the original pages in these days of computers, but it seems like it would be a
lot of work and possibly not very successful.

While I like what I can see of the text drawings, I've never been as fond of
the color plates in this book - they've always struck me as a bit weak in
color, and have an odd softness to them. In fact, the entire appearance of the
book seems designed for girls, rather than boys - something about the pastel
colors and the very effeminate Prince Marvel. They strike a bit of an odd contrast
to the story, with its theme of seeking adventures.   I also agree that the
color plates would really be pretty well lost if reproduced in black and white.

I haven't seen the BOW illustrations, but maybe they were trying for a more
vigorous approach?

Bill Campbell

Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hungry Tiger Press <hungrytigerpress at pacbell.net>
Subject: [Regalia] YEW illustrations

Bill and John pointed out the main reasons why BOW brought in a new illustrator.
The Oz club actually considered a YEW reprint in the late 80s but they wanted
to do a facsimile or ATLEAST usee all the original illos and the problems of the orange illos
under the text killed the project.

The same I am sure influenced BOW. However, I think
the main reason BOW hired George O'Connor was so they could produce a signed
limited edition. Cory and Baum are of course deceased but young Mr. O'Conner
was very much alive. And the LTD edition made the book "viable"
financially.

For those that don't know, George O'Conner has gone on to have a fairly
successful career as a comic-book artist -- as did Fanny Cory! Who drew a
number of comic strips over the years - most importantly LITTLE MISS MUFFET. I
have all of her comics and she also did a LITTLE MISS MUFFET Big Little Book -
which looks quite nice next to a LAUGHING DRAGON.

Best, David Maxine

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:34:54 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] cory

"J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net> and WCam60 at aol.com
commented on various factors that would have made it difficult for Books of Wonder to
reprint Fanny Cory's illos in their edition of "Yew." I think Bill is right
in suspecting that the factor that would have caused the most difficulty was
the original's use of single-color illos extending under the text. It can be
done -- they did it for their edition of "Wizard," but separating the black
text from the color line and then putting them back together again must have
been a lot of work. And Cory's choices of color were lighter than Denslow's,
less of a contrast with the white background, and the faint colors would
probably have made keeping the separation accurate more difficult still.

I can see what Bill means in thinking that the illos are more the kind of
thing that girls would enjoy, and not so much attractive to boys, but I
don't think that would have mattered if the technical problems of
reproduction weren't so great. Books of Wonder aims at selling copies for
child readers, but it's probably not so much at kids spending their own
money as at libraries and gift-giving adults, who already know what Baum's
name means, and I suspect that little boys who might be put off the book by
the pastel illos if they were buying it wouldn't object to trying it as a
gift or a library-loan. Is it significant that most of the scholarship
that's been done on Cory was done by boys, by Doug and Dave Greene? -- well,
maybe not, since they were also encouraged by getting to meet her, when she
lived near them, but their articles have made it clear that they enjoy her
work a lot. (They arranged for the publication of a gorgeous late work of
hers, a picture book, "The Fairy Alphabet," and if a library near you has
it, it's well worth a look. I don't think it's currently in print.)

A Regalia arrived just as I started to type this, and I see that David
Maxine argues that the main reason for using new illos was to get a
copyrightable edition. No doubt that was a factor, too, but I suspect from
the fact that they used the original illos not only in their Oz books but in
their editions of "Sea Fairies" and " Sky Island" that the more important
factor was the difficulties of those illos that run underneath the texts.
Their edition of "Dot and Tot" was another one with new illos, and it's
likewise another one where the illos (by 
Denslow) in the original run under
the text.

Ruth Berman

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hungry Tiger Press <hungrytigerpress at pacbell.net>
Subject: [Regalia] Cory and DOT AND TOT

Well, a few more words...

The reason for BOW's ditching the original Denslow pics had more to do with
political correctness than anything else. BOW edited the text as I recall and
the raciall offensive illos were just too much I strongly suspect.

Also, I must point out that people should not confuse the Morrow/BOW books with
the Emerald City Press/BOW books. The $$$$$$ available to Morrow for Morrow's
graphics staff to prep the most important edition of WIZARD in the last fifty
years doesnt compare to the minor funds that Peter
Glassman could front from BOW's budget to do a
paperback that's gonna have only 500 copies printed.

Also, re; Ruth Berman's comment that I thought "copyrightaability"
was a factor. I didnt say that. I said it was done to
allow for a signed limited edition.

SEA FAIRIES and SKY ISLAND kept their original illos for two good reasons: first they
were b&w line art - and second Oz fans would have been upset
to have Neill's pics replaced. They were also much
cheaper ala Neill -  being in effect photo facsimiles of the original
editions.

And finally, as a small publisher who specializes in reprints, I can not stress
enough the changes in publishing and scanning technology in the last ten years.
Today, anyone with photoshop could solve the YEW
under text illustration problems. A decade ago it was slow and labor intensive.
Fifteen years ago, when the Oz Club considered the project - it would have
required photgraphs, filters, halftones superimpostition and it would have been a nightmare for
someone.

Just something to keep in mind...

David M.
Hungry Tiger Press

L. Frank Baum, Fanny Cory

Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:55:41 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] cory

Doug Greene sent some additions and corrections to my comments on his work
with Cory:

>Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 6:59 AM
>Subject: Re: cory
> On Cory, some minor corrections:
> A)  Dave wasn't involved in the Cory investigation.  For my sins, t'was me
> alone.
> B) I never met her, but I located her in Montana and called her.  She was
> then living with her daughter, and was too frail to speak directly with
> me, but her daughter relayed my questions, wrote down her mother's
> replies, and sent them on.  This must have been about 1972.
> C)  She put me in contact with Cory's son, who was then living in
> retirement in Newport News, and we met to talk about lots of Cory-related
> matters, and he showed me some of THE FAIRY ALPHABET pictures . . .
> D) . . . but I had nothing to do with getting the book into print.  But I
> agree that it is lovely. <

And Bill Campbell corrects me on the difficulty of reproducing Denslow's
"Dot and Tot" illos -- that the technical problem posed is not one of illos
that go under the text, but of 3-color illos. As to how they would look in
b&w -- well, they're still pretty good that way (I included one in the
"Who's Who in the Borderlands" I did), but it's fairly obvious that the
light grey sections represent something less effective than the original.

Ruth Berman

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:10:35 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] borderlands whos, goblins

A small side-note on Yew -- I think the reference to the Governor of the
Goblins (a friend of Prince Marvel's) is the only time we get goblins in
Baum's books? It's unusual to have goblins among the "good guys" -- usually,
they're portrayed as villainous (as in George MacDonald's "The Princess and
the Goblins.") The "Webster's Collegiate" says "goblin" is from Middle
English gobelin, going back to Greek kobalos, rogue. You'd think it would
also be related to Gobelin, a kind of French tapestry, and to German kobold,
but the dictionary doesn't indicate that there's any connection. (I don't
remember whose speculation it was that goblin and elf come from the Ghibelines and Guelfs,
feuding Italian aristocrats, as portrayed in Dante's "Divine Comedy," but my recollection is that this speculation is
generally considered invalid. It's so ingenious, though, that it's fun to recall.) The
dictionary definition doesn't specify that goblins are likely to live
underground, but in fiction they often do (as MacDonald's do, for instance),
and the portrayals have probably also been influenced by the idea of
Paracelsus' gnomes (earth-dwelling spirits). I suspect that Baum didn't
normally use goblins in his stories because he was already using gnomes (or
nomes), and felt it would be confusing to use both,
as their ranges are so
similar.

Ruth Berman

Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:47:24 -0500
From: David Hulan <dhulan at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Regalia] Goblins

Ruth -

There's a race called the Goozle-Goblins on the side of the bad guys in the
"War Between Good and Evil" chapter of THE LIFE AND ADVENTURES OF SANTA CLAUS.

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:28:38 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] goblins ps

Oops, I see I had a fairly similar comment on "goblins" in connection with
the wicked goblins who fight on the Awgwas' side in "Life and Adventures of
Santa Claus." Well, it doesn't quite entirely duplicate, so maybe the
repetition isn't so much as to be a bore!

Ruth Berman

Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 20:07:54 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] borderlands whos, goblins

>A small side-note on Yew -- I think the reference to the Governor of the
>Goblins (a friend of Prince Marvel's) is the only time we get goblins in
>Baum's books? It's unusual to have goblins among the "good guys" --
>usually,
>they're portrayed as villainous (as in George MacDonald's "The Princess and
>the Goblins.") The "Webster's Collegiate" says "goblin" is from Middle
>English gobelin, going back to Greek kobalos, rogue. You'd think it would
>also be related to Gobelin, a kind of French tapestry, and to German
>kobold,
>but the dictionary doesn't indicate that there's any connection. (I don't
>remember whose speculation it was that goblin and elf come from the
>Ghibelines and Guelfs, feuding Italian aristocrats, as portrayed in Dante's
>"Divine Comedy," but my recollection is that this speculation is generally
>considered invalid. It's so ingenious, though, that it's fun to recall.)
>The
>dictionary definition doesn't specify that goblins are likely to live
>underground, but in fiction they often do (as MacDonald's do, for
>instance),
>and the portrayals have probably also been influenced by the idea of
>Paracelsus' gnomes (earth-dwelling spirits). I suspect that Baum didn't
>normally use goblins in his stories because he was already using gnomes (or
>nomes), and felt it would be confusing to use both, as their ranges are so
>similar.
>
>Ruth Berman

In "The Fairy Mythology" by Thomas Keightley, the author makes little or no
mention of the Germanic and English goblins. He only speaks of the French
goblins--the lutins. As far as the French were concerned, goblins *could* be
helpful around the house by doing chores (like brownies), but unlike
brownies, they were only helpful if given offerings and gifts first.
Elizabethan poets, such as Shakespeare, wrote of the "drudging
goblin"--Robin Goodfellows and hobgoblins.  Brownies were happy to help out
just for the sake of being kind-hearted towards humans. Goblins, of course,
were far more likely to cause mischief and wreck the house. In olden days,
goblins were treated carefully--the saying "I wouldn't touch him with a
ten-foot pole" comes to mind. In Germany, the goblins (called kobolds)
started out as helpful spirits carved out of wood, but then many of them
gained freedom from their household slavery and became mischievous as well.
Goblins the world over are just like the weather; you never know what
they're going to be like next!

Chris Gembara

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:53:00 -0400
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Yew Illustrations

On 3/24/07, J. L. Bell <jnolbell at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> > Frankly, I'm at a loss to explain why BoW would pay George O'Connor to
> > illustrate YEW when Fanny Cory's images are in the public domain.
>
> First, the Cory illustrations might not have reproduced well. The color
> plates appear best in well preserved first editions, which of course are
> hardest to obtain and take apart; after that, they were printed in two
> colors only. And converting Cory's spectrum of colors to black and white
> might have produced an unattractive wash of grays.
>
> Second, Books of Wonder might have felt the original art looked too
> old-fashioned for young readers today. (I don't recall any issues of
> racial or ethnic caricatures in YEW, which some other Baum originals
> suffer from.)

Was there a picture of the "Blackamoor" who wrestles with Prince
Marvel in the original edition?

> The first copy of YEW I bought was one that Chris Dulabone put out
> through Buckethead. It was the first reprint since the mid-1900s, so I
> had to be grateful for that.

Yes, that's the one I have, and it DOES use the original illustrations
(reprinted in black and white) throughout most of the book.  I believe
it had some odd errors in it, though, like the title being reprinted
at the end of one of the chapters.

> But the cover image was Chris's own sketch
> of King Terribus before Marvel changed him, looking as if it had been
> drawn with a thick Sharpie. I can't look at it without shuddering.

Well, that IS the reaction you're supposed to have to the
pre-transformed Terribus, right?

Nathan

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:23:33 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] goblins, cory

"Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com> wrote:
> In "The Fairy Mythology" by Thomas Keightley, the author makes little or
> no mention of the Germanic and English goblins. He only speaks of the
> French goblins--the lutins. <

That gets into the vexed question of translations. Dvorak's tone-poem
"Vodnik" (water person, or possibly small water person) in English is
usually called "The Water Goblin," and I suspect Dvorak would have
considered it an appropriate translation -- but I'm not sure. There are also
words in HC Andersen that are often translated "goblin," but different
translations vary a good deal. Terms as different as "troll" and "elf" can
show up, and I think I recall that at least some of the time (in "The Snow 
Queen," for instance, with the being that makes the distorting mirror), the
more literal translation of HCA's term would be "devil," but the translators
evidently want to avoid making so clear a theological judgement.  (I'm not
sure if the Danish term is as solidly linked to Christian theology as
English "devil.")

Some famous goblins besides Macdonald's -- Christina Rossetti's "Goblin
Market," Charles E. Carryl's "Davy and the Goblin" (a benevolent goblin),
and, of course, Spiderman's Green Goblin. Quite a range of portrayals! I'm
not sure in Dickens' "The Chimes: a Goblin Story of some Bells that Rang an
Old Year out and a New Year in" if "goblin" refers to the spirits of the
bells (I don't think Dickens refers to them inside the story as "goblins"),
or if it's used as an adjective meaning "weird" or "fantastic."

"Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Was there a picture of the "Blackamoor" who wrestles with Prince Marvel in
> the original edition? >

No, I'm pretty sure there wasn't. (I'll try to remember to check for sure.)

Ruth Berman

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:15:59 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Finish Yew, Begin Zixi

>Hi All--
>If any of you have final comments on YEW, please post them today.  We
>should begin discussing ZIXI, which was actually scheduled to begin
>Sunday,
>
>If you have comments on both, please try to post them separately,
>rather than combining YEW and ZIXI in the same email.  It makes life
>for our Royal BCF Historian to keep them separate. ;-)
>
>Metta,
>Ivan

Actually, I have a question more than a statement: Was Yew (either the
island or the characters on it) ever mentioned in any of Baum's other works?
I'm not just including his children's novels/stories, but also his
nonfiction writings. Also, what does everyone else think about this: Did the
shape of the island of Yew influence the shape of the land of Oz? I think
there was some overlap in Baum's mind.

Chris Gembara

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 21:25:02 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Yew Illustrations

> > But the cover image was Chris's own sketch
> > of King Terribus before Marvel changed him, looking as if it had been
> > drawn with a thick Sharpie. I can't look at it without shuddering.
>
>Well, that IS the reaction you're supposed to have to the
>pre-transformed Terribus, right?
>
>Nathan

I think what Ivan was referring to is the poor quality of the Dubalone
drawing, not the terrifying visage of Terribus. Now, I haven't seen this
image, but looking at Chris' other drawings for Buckethead books, they're
rather terrible. A third-grader could do work of that quality. I hope I'm
not the only one who thinks this, but when I read an Oz book, I'm reading it
for the outstanding illustrations as much as the outstanding writing. An Oz
book with poorly-drawn illustrations, regardless of how well it was written,
just doesn't cut it for me.

Chris Gembara

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:26:56 -0400
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: [Regalia] The Red Rogue of YEW

As a closing thought on YEW, I have to say that I'm a little confused
as to how the Red Rogue's magic mirrors work.  According to Baum's
description, "whenever any one looked into one of them his reflection
was instantly caught and imprisoned in the mirror, and his body at the
same time became invisible to all earthly eyes, only the mirror
retaining his form."  But wouldn't being able to wander the castle
invisibly be beneficial to Prince Marvel's party?  Or are the
invisible people unable to see their surroundings?  It's never really
made clear.  Also, when the Rogue is caught by his own mirror, it
doesn't just make him invisible, but essentially freezes time for him
until the mirror breaks.  A little more explanation as to how these
mirrors worked might have been nice.

The Red Rogue's not getting any stronger as he grew is an interesting
detail, but it never really makes any difference to the plot.  Marvel
could have easily defeated him even if he HAD been as strong as an
actual giant.  Incidentally, the Rogue is described as "bigger than
the biggest giant," but this presumably only includes giants on the
Isle of Yew.  If he were bigger than the Yoops (let alone Loxo from
Thompson's SPEEDY), he probably wouldn't be able to live comfortably
in a human-sized castle.

I understand that one of Chris Dulabone's books includes the Red Rogue
as a character, but I forget which one.  The Rogue does seem to be the
only character with any real potential for future adventures, although
I suppose the fairy could become bored again and take on some other
form.

Nathan

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:40:13 -0400
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Finish Yew, Begin Zixi

On 4/3/07, Chris Gembara <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Also, what does everyone else think about this: Did the
> shape of the island of Yew influence the shape of the land of Oz? I think
> there was some overlap in Baum's mind.

Perhaps so.  While Baum already seemed to have the idea of Oz as
divided into four lands with the Emerald City in the middle with
WIZARD, it wasn't as clearly defined as it later became.  So maybe he
did have Yew in mind when mapping out Oz.  But it might have been the
other way 'round for certain things, like how the southern areas of
both lands are ruled by queens.  Baum definitely seemed to like the
idea of one country divided into smaller ones.

Nathan

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:36:13 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Finish Yew, Begin Zixi

>But it might have been the
>other way 'round for certain things, like how the southern areas of
>both lands are ruled by queens.
>
>Nathan

The idea of the southern part of a country being ruled by a queen/sorceress
goes all the way back to MO. So that may have been an idea that got stuck in
Baum's head that just seemed to work for him.

Chris Gembara

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:43:16 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] The Red Rogue of YEW

>The Red Rogue's not getting any stronger as he grew is an interesting
>detail, but it never really makes any difference to the plot.  Marvel
>could have easily defeated him even if he HAD been as strong as an
>actual giant.  Incidentally, the Rogue is described as "bigger than
>the biggest giant," but this presumably only includes giants on the
>Isle of Yew.  If he were bigger than the Yoops (let alone Loxo from
>Thompson's SPEEDY), he probably wouldn't be able to live comfortably
>in a human-sized castle.
>
>Nathan

A bit of a digression, but from my understanding, only Mrs. Yoop was
enormous beyond belief. Mr. Yoop (and by extension, Reera the Red, the other
yookoohoo) didn't seem to be quite as gigantic as her. Going by the
illustrations of PATCHWORK GIRL and TIN WOODMAN, Mr. Yoop was roughly twice
as tall as a human and Mrs. Yoop was a hundred feet tall or higher. Other
than Mrs. Yoop, Baum's giants don't seem to have been incredibly masssive,
just merely tall.

Chris Gembara

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:16:05 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] yew illo

I was wrong in saying that "Yew" doesn't have an illo of the "Blackamoor"
wrestler. It does have one, an under-the-text illo (a bit faint and hard to
make out) of the Blackmoor wrestling with Prince Marvel (or maybe Nerle, but
I think it's Marvel). I don't think the portrayal is stereotyped or
otherwise likely to be considered a concern in terms of avoiding racism in a
modern reprint, although it's a bit hard to be sure, looking at an illo in a
pastel color under a lot of text.

Ruth Berman

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:03:28 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] Yew

"Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Was Yew (either the island or the characters on it) ever mentioned in any
> of Baum's other works?<

I don't think so. He didn't include it on the map of Oz and the Borderlands.
"Yew" includes mentions of the Ryls and Knooks of Baum's general mythology,
but not of specific characters from his other books, and the other books
don't mention characters from "Yew." I suppose it could be argued that the
Forest of Lurla on Yew might be a place where Lurline hangs out (and/or maybe Lulea),
but the text doesn't say so.

> Did the shape of the island of Yew influence the shape of the land of Oz?
> <

Nathan points out that Oz is already divided into four countries with a
central section in the middle in "Wizard" [1900]. He suggests that the
influence could have been going both ways, as the mapping of Oz became more
detailed in later years. I don't know that Yew would have influenced those
added Oz details, though. The main increase in specificity (aside from
adding named places) was in making the shape a horizontal (rough) oblong.
(Does Baum specify that Yew is circular? The Martin/Haff map draws it so,
but I don't remember if the text includes that detail.)

> The idea of the southern part of a country being ruled by a
> queen/sorceress goes all the way back to MO. So that may have been an idea 
> that got stuck in Baum's head that just seemed to work for him. >

I don't think the text of "Mo" specifies that Maetta is in the south of Mo,
does it? The connections might be more of a stepwise sort, from the
sorceress Maetta to the sorceress Glinda, and from the southern Queen Glinda
to the southern queen Plenta, rather than something more direct.

"Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm a little confused as to how the Red Rogue's magic mirrors work.
> According to Baum's description, "whenever any one looked into one of them
> his reflection was instantly caught and imprisoned in the mirror, and his
> body at the same time became invisible to all earthly eyes, only the
> mirror retaining his form."  But wouldn't being able to wander the castle
> invisibly be beneficial to Prince Marvel's party?  Or are the invisible
> people unable to see their surroundings? <

I wondered about that, too. Nerle is able to see where he is, but not able
to hear himself when he speaks. I wonder if we're supposed to assume that
besides not being able to see/be seen or hear/be heard, they cannot feel
objects or be felt by others. (If they could be feel or be felt, they could
communicate by writing or rap-once-for-yes-type codes.)

An interesting odd little detail -- Rogers' bio points out that Baum had
earlier used the name Kwytoffle as the name of the Gnome King in his
dramatization (that wound up not getting produced) of Edith Ogden Harrison's
"Prince Silverwings." (The character of the Gnome King is in Harrison, but I
think not the name.) I was for a long time under the vague impression that
the name was meant to suggest toffee candy. And maybe to some small extent
it is, but then someone (Martin Gardner?) pointed out that it's a pun on
"quite awful."

Ruth Berman

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:34:19 -0500
From: "Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Yew

>Nathan points out that Oz is already divided into four countries with a
>central section in the middle in "Wizard" [1900]. He suggests that the
>influence could have been going both ways, as the mapping of Oz became more
>detailed in later years. I don't know that Yew would have influenced those
>added Oz details, though. The main increase in specificity (aside from
>adding named places) was in making the shape a horizontal (rough) oblong.
>(Does Baum specify that Yew is circular? The Martin/Haff map draws it so,
>but I don't remember if the text includes that detail.)

From the third paragraph of Chapter 2: "The island was round--like a mince
pie. And it was divided into four quarters--also like a pie--except that
there was a big place in the center where the fifth kingdom, called Spor,
lay in the midst of the mountains."

The missing description seems to be whether the island is cut diagonally or
like a cross, not the shape of Yew itself.

> > The idea of the southern part of a country being ruled by a
> > queen/sorceress goes all the way back to MO. So that may have been an 
>idea
> > that got stuck in Baum's head that just seemed to work for him. >
>
>I don't think the text of "Mo" specifies that Maetta is in the south of Mo,
>does it? The connections might be more of a stepwise sort, from the
>sorceress Maetta to the sorceress Glinda, and from the southern Queen
>Glinda
>to the southern queen Plenta, rather than something more direct.
>
>Ruth Berman

You were right on this. The Baum writings don't specify where Maetta is
located, but later authors and illustrators seem to think that she lives in
the South.

Miss Seseley's companions are named Berna and Helda. A reference to some
Germanic saga? Hilda is a valkyrie and Holda is a winter goddess, so Helda 
may be somewhere inbetween. Baron Merd, Seseley's father, may have some
Germanic inspiration as well. Actually, many of the names in YEW seem to be
based on Germanic or Anglo-Saxon words. I wonder if it's merely a coincidence.

Chris Gembara

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:15:32 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] YEW's influence?

Chris Gembara wrote:
>>Was Yew (either the island or the
characters on it) ever mentioned in
any of Baum's other works? I'm not just including his children's
novels/stories, but also his nonfiction writings.

>>Also, what does everyone else think about this: Did the shape of the
island of Yew influence the shape of the land of
Oz? I think there was
some overlap in Baum's mind.

Good questions, and interesting thoughts.

As you know, Baum didn't bring Yew into his Oz world the way he did with
Noland, Ix, Hiland, Loland, Merryland, and the Forest of Burzee in ROAD,
and Mo in PATCHWORK GIRL and SCARECROW. He didn't even give it a flyover
visit in MAGIC.

I suspect Baum didn't feel he could return to Yew so easily because of
the timing issue. We've discussed how YEW from start to finish talks
about the contrast between the magical world and the "civilized" world,
how they can't coexist. Yew as a whole has changed fundamentally by the
end of the book. The fairy who became Prince Marvel and the Red Rogue
are still alive, but no one else is. (Well, maybe Twi still exists
behind those thorns.)

Even though Baum wrote in other "borderlands" books from the early
Oughts about his young characters growing up, the passage of time wasn't
as basic to those stories as it is to YEW. In leaving Yew without
visible magic, he cut it off from fairyland. For all we know, it
actually turned into Ireland or Tasmania or Sri Lanka instead of hanging
off the continent that includes Oz.

Baum had a dramatic version of Yew called PRINCE MARVEL that he (or
someone else) wrote for BAUM'S JUVENILE SPEAKER or another such book.
But that was simply an adaptation for another medium, not a continuation
of the story or discussion of it.

As for the shape of Yew influencing Oz, I agree with other folks that
Baum had already established Oz as having three countries at the
cardinal points of the compass, with hints of a fourth (that unseen
North), and the mysterious central area of the Emerald City.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:19:03 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Regalia] YEW and the BoW edition

David Maxine wrote:
>>Also, re; Ruth Berman's comment that I thought "copyrightaability" was
a factor. I didnt say that. I said it was done to allow for a signed limited edition.
>>

Yes, I posited that having a copyrighted edition was a plus for Books of
Wonder. But whether it's a signed limited edition or a copyright, the
principle is the same: by taking an extra step, the company turned a
public-domain book into something all its own.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 23:28:09 -0400
From: "J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] Red Rogue of YEW

Nathan DeHoff wrote:
>>As a closing thought on YEW, I have to say that I'm a little confused
as to how the Red Rogue's magic mirrors work.  According to Baum's
description, "whenever any one looked into one of them his reflection
was instantly caught and imprisoned in the mirror, and his body at the
same time became invisible to all earthly eyes, only the mirror
retaining his form."  But wouldn't being able to wander the castle
invisibly be beneficial to Prince Marvel's party?  Or are the
invisible people unable to see their surroundings?  It's never really
made clear.  Also, when the Rogue is caught by his own mirror, it
doesn't just make him invisible, but essentially freezes time for him
until the mirror breaks.>>

I read that as meaning that one's self is imprisoned in the mirror while
one's empty physical shell remains outside. In contrast, a normal mirror
shows one's outward appearance but doesn't contain one's self.

Of course, finding a companion's frozen body in front of a mirror, with
the reflection gesticulating for help, would have cut down on the
mystery of the Red Rogue's castle. So that was probably why Baum had the
bodies become invisible as well. But they also seem to have to be
untouchable.

The weakest part of that episode for me is that Prince Marvel does
something both uncharacteristic and usually undesirable--lose his temper
and break the mirror. And that turns out to be the one way to rescue his
companions. The resolution thus seems both out of character and overly
convenient.

>>The Red Rogue's not getting any stronger as he grew is an interesting
detail, but it never really makes any difference to the plot.  Marvel
could have easily defeated him even if he HAD been as strong as an
actual giant.>>

It fits the theme of the last episodes of YEW (and of other Baum
stories) about the contrast between appearance and reality, about empty
threats from humbugs. It also ties into how the Red Rogue ends up having
to do physical labor.

On the question of whether one should shudder at the sight of Terribus
before his magical cosmetic surgery, I suppose so, but Cory's
illustration of him (in a color plate) is horrific while still being
executed by a talented artist. The contrast between the young knights'
beauty and Terribus's monstrousness is very clear.

J. L. Bell                
JnoLBell at earthlink.net

    Musings about some of my favorite
    fantasy literature for young readers.

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:38:43 -0600
From: "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at umn.edu>
Subject: [Regalia] yew

"Chris Gembara" <teine_sionnic at hotmail.com> wrote:
>From the third paragraph of Chapter 2: "The island was round--like a mince
>pie. And it was divided into four quarters--also like a pie--except that
>there was a big place in the center where the fifth kingdom, called Spor,
>lay in the midst of the mountains."   The missing description seems to be
>whether the island is cut diagonally or like a cross, not the shape of Yew
>itself. >

Oh, right. Looking at an on-line text, I see that the following chapter gets
more specific:
"That part of the Enchanted Isle which was kissed by the rising sun was
called Dawna; the kingdom that was tinted rose and purple by the setting sun
was known as Auriel, and the southland, where fruits and flowers abounded,
was the kingdom of Plenta.  Up at the north lay Heg"

This phrasing implies that Yew, like Oz, is divided criss-cross, so that
each quarter corresponds to a direction, and not divided on a
latitude-and-longitude. (Or approximately so -- as with Oz, he wouldn't
necessarily be thinking of the area as being exactly geometrical.)

> Miss Seseley's companions are named Berna and Helda. A reference to some
> Germanic saga? Hilda is a valkyrie and Holda is a winter goddess, so Helda 
> may be somewhere inbetween. Baron Merd, Seseley's father, may have some
> Germanic inspiration as well. Actually, many of the names in YEW seem to
> be based on Germanic or Anglo-Saxon words. <

Some are Latinate, like Auriel and Plenta. Seseley sounds as if it's the
same as Cecily, which is another Latin name (Cecilia).

"J. L. Bell" <jnolbell at earthlink.net>
> I suspect Baum didn't feel he could return to Yew so easily because of the 
> timing issue. We've discussed how YEW from start to finish talks about the 
> contrast between the magical world and the "civilized" world, how they
> can't coexist. Yew as a whole has changed fundamentally by the end of the
> book. The fairy who became Prince Marvel and the Red Rogue are still
> alive, but no one else is. (Well, maybe Twi still exists behind those
> thorns.) >

Sounds plausible.

Ruth Berman

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:06:23 -0400
From: "Nathan DeHoff" <fablesto at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Regalia] goblins

On 4/2/07, Ruth Berman <berma005 at umn.edu> wrote:
> A small side-note on Yew -- I think the reference to the Governor of the
> Goblins (a friend of Prince Marvel's) is the only time we get goblins in
> Baum's books?

Aside from the Goozzle-Goblins, who have already been mentioned, I
think this might be the case.  I can recall at least two mentions of
goblins in the Thompson books, though.  There are the frog goblins of
Marshland in YELLOW KNIGHT, and the sea serpent's goblin teeth in
CAPTAIN SALT.

Nathan