Day 1 - Crescent Moon arrives at Octagon Island "one morning" - departs
  again before evening ("seven bells," according to Roger; so eithe
  3:30 or 7:30 PM)
Day 2 - They meet the Lavalanders in AM ("Morning found the Crescent
  Moon forging ahead with a stiff breeze") - receive Sally in evening,
  shortly before 5:30 (Ato says "It's three bells and time to stir up
  the food," while "Samuel strode happily along the deck, stopping to light
  the red lamps on the port and the green lights on the starboard") -
  Roger plots position of Volcano Island in evening ("There was a tiny
  crescent moon sliding down the sky"; Roger places the island "'Bout
  ... sixty leagues from Octagon Island") - Samuel stands first watch
  with Sally, beginning at 8:00 ("by eight bells the King and the Read
  Bird were sleeping soundly and Samuel Salt had the ship to himself"),
  lasting until 12:00 ("Not until midnight when he roused Ato could he
  bear to put Sally back")
Day 3 - Roger sights Patrippany Island "while Ato was cooking breakfast"
  - they enter the Bigginlittle River at breakfast time - meet Nikobo,
  rescue Tandy - set sail again in evening with the tide - Roger discovers
  Tandy's talent for drawing at 12:00 ("When Roger, on first watch,
  called out eight bells")
Day 4 - Tandy begins to emerge from sulks in AM ("The day was bright and
  breezy") - encounter with Sea Serpent
 
Some time passes - probably several weeks (in order to give Tandy time
to acclimatize) - "The days that followed always seemed to Tandy the
happiest he had known."
 
Day 24 - Samuel and Tandy inspect the collection
Day 25 - Crescent Moon arrives at Peakenspire Island - tour with Alberif
  in PM ("of his many experiences Tandy always remembered best the afternoon
  spent on Peakenspire") - fog late in the day ("The evening had blown up
  raw and cold")
Day 26 - Tandy stands morning watch beginning at 4:00 - they encounter
  the Sea Forest in early morning - depart late in PM ("Samuel did not
  get his ship underway till late afternoon")
Day 27 - They encounter the Narwhal
Day 28 - Samuel Salt in Seeweegia in AM - storm at sea
Day 29 - The Crescent Moon rides out the storm, "coming, toward morning,
  into quiet waters at last."  They conquer Ozamaland by dinnertime
 
A "whole week" passes before the Crescent Moon leaves Ozamaland.

From:  "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at m...>
Date:  Mon Jun 24, 2002  12:30 pm
Subject:  Samuel Salt

I get the impression that RPT enjoyed looking up (and/or experiencing) ocean
sailing for "Captain Salt." Her books are generally strong in using
landscape for atmosphere (Munchkin forests in "Grampa" and "Ojo," and
seascapes in "Gnome King" and "Pirates" and "The Curious Cruise of Captain
Santa," for example), and that's true of her seascapes here. I meant to
check a larger dictionary (don't find it in "Webster's Collegiate") to see
if "Goosewing my topsails" means anything specific in sailing lingo, or if
it's RPT inventing plausible expletives, but it works as comedy, either
way.

Probably sensitized by J.L. Bell's comments on political implications of
previous books, I'm bothered this time around by the "empire," as I hadn't
been on previous readings. Much of the time, of course, what the Captain
seems to have in mind by an empire isn't any kind of subjection, but rather
sets of mutual trade agreements, plus, for countries which have extra space
and are willing, possible one-way colonizing going on. Still, all those
colonies going out raise the unpleasant possibility of getting enough Ozites
in Peakenspire and suchlike places to force changes on the "natives" that
the "natives" might not appreciate. Still, since we don't actually know if
any Ozites who went out a-colonizing would keep their immortality, there's
some question as to how many (if any?) Ozites would actually choose to go.
Also worrisome is the Captain's attempts to collect intelligent beings as
specimens. Ato and Roger stop him when he tries to keep the lava baby, and
during much of the narrative his collection mania is presented as something
too enthusiastic, needing correction by his friends, but by the time he
geets to Seewegia, he gets to keep the jelly-boy, and the narrative comments
have pretty much stopped undercutting his scientific interests as a mania in
need of correction.

This is, I think, the first Oz book to say explicitly that the Nonestic
Ocean goes all the way around the Ozian continent. It would pretty much have
to, in any world where there's more ocean than land (and the Wizard's
comments in "Emerald City" on that subject show that Oz's world is about the
same as ours in that respect), but in terms of the way Baum set up his map
of Oz and the surrounding countries, it would have been at least possible
that the continent went on for a long way south, with places like Burzee
landlocked rather than coastal.

Ruth Berman

From:  "Kenneth Shepherd" <kenandkala at e...>
Date:  Tue Jun 25, 2002  7:47 pm
Subject:  Ozian imperialism

Responding to Ruth's comments on the Ozian empire in _Captain Salt_....

Ruth, I think you're right in your analysis of Samuel Salt. He is an
unrepentent imperialist in the same way that many of the 18th and 19th
century explorers were both scientist-collectors and imperialists.
Furthermore, events in other Oz books suggest that Ozian imperialism is an
ongoing topic of concern throughout the series.

***Warning... Minor Spoilers Follow***

Years ago I published in the _Bugle_ an article on Ozian imperialism that
dealt with Ozma's (political) relations with the Nome Kingdom. There was a
second half to that article that never saw print, and it was dedicated
mostly to an analysis of the way that imperialist thought progressed in the
last part of the series, culminating in _Captain Salt_ and in Nick Chopper's
attempted annexation of the Strat in _Ozoplaning_.

More even than Samuel Salt, Nick Chopper provides a model for early
(political) Ozian imperialism. He names himself Emperor (significant title)
of the Winkies as early as _Marvelous Land_, and he leads Ozma's army
against the Nome King in _Ozma_. Furthermore, his mistaken efforts to expand
Ozma's reign (in direct imitation of Samuel Salt) ended the growth of the
Ozian empire in _Ozoplaning_.

Ozma herself shows a tendency toward imperial thinking in the later volumes.
By the time of the celebration chronicled in _Wishing Horse_, Ozma had taken
the title of 'Imperial Highness.' Note also that Skamperoo who briefly
replaced her, was instantly hailed as Emperor of Oz.

But it was Samuel Salt in _Pirates_ and _Captain Salt_ that established the
model for imperial expansion and colonization. Oz became openly
imperialistic only after Samuel Salt was named Royal Explorer and Discoverer
of Oz at the end of _Pirates_. The former pirate's arrival was fortuitous in
several ways: not only did he capture the ex-king of the Nomes and restore
the Magic Belt to the Queen, but he also provided the background needed to
spread Ozma's imperial policy. His life as a pirate, and especially the
events which led to Ruggedo's whirlwind invasion in _Pirates_, made Salt the
ideal man for the job. It was no accident that Ozma specified at the end of
_Pirates_ that he must 'give up piracy and become our royal Discoverer and
Explorer, take possession of new countries and set the flag of Oz on far
islands and mountain tops.'

This appointment marked the first public declaration of a distinctly
imperial Ozian foreign policy. Ozma's excuse for expanding her power beyond
the deserts was that her country was becoming overpopulated, an
understandable complaint in a land where no one ever dies, and Thompson
makes this explicit in _Captain Salt_: 'Each of the four kingdoms of Oz
shown on Samuel's map was so dotted with smaller kingdoms, cities, towns,
villages and the holdings of ancient knights and barons there was scarcely
room for another castle. With young princes growing up on every hand, Roger
could well sympathize with the need of Ozma for more territory.'

It seems likely that the surplus population was agitating (quietly) for new
worlds to conquer. Rulers had become so numerous that it was impossible to
keep a governing hand on all of them, and in some cases they threatened the
throne itself; Mogodore's invasion of the Emerald City (in _Jack
Pumpkinhead_) is a case in point.

There are also various advantages Ozma offers to the potential colonial
hosts. These fall into three general categories: 1. political ("Ozma is so
clever at governing"); 2. military (living under the protection of the Ozian
flag); and 3. economic (Salt says to Alberif of Peakenspire Island, "In
time, fruit, foodstuffs, books and merchandise will arrive from Oz, and in
return you may send some of the sparkling crystals composing these
mountains. You might even invite a band of settlers from Oz to come and
live as your loyal subjects here.") The last advantage is most interesting,
because it parallels in some ways the economic imperialism of Europe and the
United States in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Colonizing might well have appeared to Ozma and her courtiers a safe way of
reducing the problems: it provided young men and women, both ruling and
ruled, with a means of gaining lands of their own and relieved the national
government of the need to find work for them. The territories annexed by
Samuel Salt might have solved Oz's surplus population problem by themselves:
Alberif, Prince of Peakenspire Island, easily the smallest of the
inhabitable lands, states that he can accommodate a thousand settlers.
Ozamaland is supposed to be twice as large as any land bordering the
Nonestic Ocean, including the continent of which Oz is a part.

We never find out what happened to the putative Ozian colonists, if indeed
they ever made their way to the corners of the Nonestic Ocean.... It would
make an interesting topic for a pastiche.

Ken Shepherd
(still lurking, after all these years....)

From:  Scott Andrew Hutchins <scottandrewh at c...>
Date:  Tue Jun 25, 2002  8:42 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT

Conquering in the name of Oz seems rather off-kilter (well, maybe not in Thompson), but
with this and WISHING HORSE (which I'll be commenting on in the next few days)
Thompson appears to be at the height of her powers.  After a
not-so-flattering portrayal of an Arab who SHOULD be sympathetic, Matiah, we
have Chunum, who is.  In both books she makes comments about evil
Mandarins, but I have a Chinese friend who associates anything Mandarin with
the evils of Communist China, so maybe it's not so bigoted as we seem to think
it is, or she's (the friend, not Thompson) bigoted against Mandarins, which I
doubt.  As Ruth mentioned, I was also bugged that nothing was said about
the jellyfish boy, while the fire baby was an issue.  It seemed like
Thompson didn't re-read her book for consistency.  But then, considering
how much she re-told of WIZARD in WISHING HORSE and still couldn't get the
directions right, this isn't too surprising.  Tandy reminds me a lot of
Kenneth Forbes in _Aunt Jane's Nieces_.  I started reading _Aunt Jane's
Nieces Abroad_ today, coincidentally, but I don't think Kenneth appears in it,
though he does later in the series.  He'll be appearing in my Oz trilogy,
having arrived some time after Patsy chose another suitor.  The few of you
who have read _Tip of Oz_ may surmise where (location-wise) he shows up.

Wow, that was stream-of-consciousness.  More commentary as I read more of
yours.  For once I'm actually done before we start discussion.  Being
employed (finally) and having a lot of moments where work came to a halt made
things easier, though.

Scott Andrew Hutchins

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Wed Jun 26, 2002  10:58 am
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

Ruth Berman wrote:
<<Probably sensitized by J.L. Bell's comments on political implications of
previous books, I'm bothered this time around by the "empire," as I hadn't
been on previous readings. Much of the time, of course, what the Captain
seems to have in mind by an empire isn't any kind of subjection, but rather
sets of mutual trade agreements, plus, for countries which have extra space
and are willing, possible one-way colonizing going on.>>

I think this reading is a bit too charitable, though there's nothing wrong
with being charitable. At the beginning of CAPTAIN SALT the title character
is clear about his mission: "We're explorers and fine gentlemen now, and
when we set the flag of Oz on lofty mountains and rocky isles, when we
bring savage tribes and strange races under the beneficent rule of Ozma of
Oz, we must look like Conquerors." [I'm picking up these quotes from my
electronic text of SALT, and am spending too much of my discretionary Oz
time on another project to add my usual page citations.]

Salt later tempers that by insisting, "Everything's to be polite and
peaceable this voyage. No guns, knives or scimitars. Queen Ozma
particularly does not want any country taken by force or against its will.
. . . We'll explain all the advantages of coming under the flag and
protection of a powerful country like Oz."

Salt's Octagonese companions, who aren't from Oz and have no orders from
Ozma, don't care for that approach. For their own safety, it seems, they
insist on using force. Ato tells the captain: "The one trouble with you,
Sammy, is that you take too long to get mad. So I shall go ashore armed as
usual with my kitchen knife and blunderbuss. I don't intend to be sliced
into sandwiches while you're talking through your three-cornered hat and
waving flags at a lot of ignorant savages."

All the sailors' contempt for the inhabitants of these "undiscovered"
islands matches the feelings of colonizers throughout history. Salt
insists, "Our business is with wild new countries that have never been seen
or heard of." But of course all the people on those island HAVE seen and
heard of their countries. He's the supposedly knowledgable mariner who's so
ignorant. But he's also the one with superior weapons and will.

When Capt Salt lists the reasons for his mission, he puts the benefit to Oz
first and all those "advantages" to the conquered or colonized people
second: "anyone can see that Oz is overpopulated and needs new territories
and seaports. And since Ozma is so clever at governing and her subjects all
so happy and prosperous, the more people who come under her rule the
better!" (We can assume that for Salt personally his driving motive is to
explore and gather scientific specimens.)

<<all those colonies going out raise the unpleasant possibility of getting
enough Ozites in Peakenspire and suchlike places to force changes on the
"natives" that the "natives" might not appreciate.  Still, since we don't
actually know if any Ozites who went out a-colonizing would keep their
immortality, there's some question as to how many (if any?) Ozites would
actually choose to go.>>

I was struck by how CAPTAIN SALT states that the colonization would be led
by the elite of Thompson's version of Oz: young royalty. "Each of the four
Kingdoms in Oz shown on Samuel's map was so dotted with smaller Kingdoms,
cities, towns, villages and the holdings of ancient Knights and Barons,
there was scarcely room for another castle. With young Princes growing up
on every hand, Roger could well sympathize with the need of Ozma for more
territory."

Losing immortality might indeed be an issue for emigres, but to what
extent? As far back as TIK-TOK, the Ozians marching through Ev were said to
be impossible to kill. In PIRATES and, I believe, SPEEDY Thompson reported
that people just outside Oz had tremendously long lifetimes. So as a
practical matter, this may not matter.

Did anyone from Oz actually emigrate in this way? Salt tells Roger, "I hear
the Wizard of Oz is working on a new fleet of airships that will make
crossing the desert and Nonestic a real lark and enable new settlers to
reach these outlying islands in a day or less." That remark became the seed
of inspiration for OZOPLANING WITH THE WIZARD, and the Wizard's airships
clearly do allow travel at those fast speeds. What in Thompson's Oz would
have prevented her characters from carrying out the plans clearly described
in CAPTAIN SALT?

Perhaps Nonestic colonization was attempted, and we just don't see the
results. Imagine, for instance, "young Prince" Tatters and Urtha setting up
a plantation on some Nonestic island to collect its natural cloth or fibers
and export that raw material back home to Ragbad. Or perhaps, as Ken
Shepherd's reading of OZOPLANING seems to imply, the conflict with
Stratovania made Ozma less eager for expansion.

From an Oz-as-literature perspective, Thompson's retirement from writing an
Oz book a year might be all that prevented her from following up on the
imperial implications of CAPTAIN SALT. Thompson stated how much she fun she
had writing about the old pirate. Tandy hasn't been married off yet. In
casting about for a new plot, she may well have chosen a return to
Ozamaland under the Pax Oziana.

<<Also worrisome is the Captain's attempts to collect intelligent beings as
specimens. Ato and Roger stop him when he tries to keep the lava baby, and
during much of the narrative his collection mania is presented as something
too enthusiastic, needing correction by his friends, but by the time he
geets to Seewegia, he gets to keep the jelly-boy, and the narrative
comments have pretty much stopped undercutting his scientific interests as
a mania in need of correction.>>

Salt's specimen-collecting is especially problematic when we consider that
the main plot of this book involves rescuing a child who was kidnapped from
his home and family for the benefit of others.

Charles Phipps wrote:
<<Let's not forget that Oz itself is composed of an extremely large number
of xenophobic, isolationalist, and otherwise almost completely distinct
kingdoms which refuse to allow even the slightest variation from their odd
odd ways.
...
Diversity after all is something celebrated in Oz.>>

Do you see the contradiction here? Or at least the paradox? Oz, according
to this reading, is a society very open-minded about closed-minded people.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Wed Jun 26, 2002  11:41 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] Samuel Salt

Ruth:
>I get the impression that RPT enjoyed looking up (and/or experiencing)
>ocean
>sailing for "Captain Salt." Her books are generally strong in using
>landscape for atmosphere (Munchkin forests in "Grampa" and "Ojo," and
>seascapes in "Gnome King" and "Pirates" and "The Curious Cruise of Captain
>Santa," for example), and that's true of her seascapes here.

There is quite a bit of Roger explaining the parts and workings of a ship,
and Thompson explains away one of the biggest sailing-related flaws that had
occurred in PIRATES. In that book, an incredibly small crew is able to
handle the ship. In CAPTAIN SALT, on the other hand, Roger makes it clear
that the ship would normally need a much larger crew, but Jinnicky's
mechanical devices reduce the need for manpower. (Sounds like a Nonestican
example of machines putting people out of business.)

>Also worrisome is the Captain's attempts to collect intelligent beings as
>specimens. Ato and Roger stop him when he tries to keep the lava baby, and
>during much of the narrative his collection mania is presented as something
>too enthusiastic, needing correction by his friends, but by the time he
>geets to Seewegia, he gets to keep the jelly-boy, and the narrative
>comments
>have pretty much stopped undercutting his scientific interests as a mania
>in
>need of correction.

Since the jellyfish people can write in letters that Tandy can understand,
Samuel is apparently kidnapping a sentient being.

Nathan

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Wed Jun 26, 2002  11:53 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] Re: Ozian imperialism *spoilers*

Charlie:
>Samuel Salt's mad attack on our yodelling peaky friends (and the lava
>folk whom I'm not even sure are aware they've been conquered given I
>don't think they spoke Ozzish) aren't necessarily good indications
>the Snuggly One wants to give the laws of behave yourself and
>monarchy to everyone under her control.

Does Salt's annexation of Peakenspire really count as a "mad attack"? I
haven't had a chance to reread the book yet, but I recall that, as soon as
Peakenspire's initial assault on the Crescent Moon fails, Prince Alberif
immediately decides to surrender unconditionally. Samuel and his crew might
take unfair advantage of this, but I would hardly call it a "mad attack."
The Lavalanders, on the other hand, probably had no idea their island had
become part of Oz. I doubt it made much difference in the long run, but it
does show the Captain's eagerness to place even unwilling territories under
Ozian rule.

>However I'm not sure if Samuel's orders might apply to lands like the
>Nome Kings or the Ozamadarian controlled Ozamaland. What exactly is
>Ozma's policy for rule by evil individuals? Does she have standing
>orderies to ovethrrowing them and annexation or what?

I don't know, but the Ozamandarins were deposed before Ozamaland came under
Ozian rule, so it wouldn't really apply.

Nathan

From:  "kenandkala" <kenandkala at e...>
Date:  Wed Jun 26, 2002  11:50 pm
Subject:  Re: Ozian imperialism

---
In Nonestica at y..., "milohio" <cummingss at k...> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> This sounds like an interesting article. If you don't mind my
> asking, why did the article never see print?
>
> Cheers,
> Scott Cummings

Scott,

Other than the fact that I ran out of time to revise and submit it to
the editor, I don't think there was a reason.

The article was originally written as a single piece of work. I
broke the first part out because the whole was too long for the space
available. It was published under the title "Imperial Oz: Ozma and
the Nome Kingdom" in the Bugle in 1992. The second part _might_ have
been seen by the members of the old Ozian Research Group in '94
or '95--I don't remember if I sent it to Andrea Yussman for
distribution or not. I do remember that Pat Maund was discussing
publication of a number of Ozian history essays some time before
that, and I sent him some essays that might have included the full
version of "Imperial Oz."

At any rate, I need some time to rethink some of my ideas before I
submit it. I've gotten somewhat more sophisticated in my definition
of "imperialism" over the past ten years (it's one of the foci of my
dissertation) and I want to strengthen my conclusions--especially
those about Nick Chopper.

Best,
Ken Shepherd

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Thu Jun 27, 2002  11:24 am
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Mandarins

Getting back to CAPTAIN SALT, the presence of the "nine Ozamandarins" in
the White City raises the question of what culture Thompson was starting
with when she imagined Ozamaland. Less so than Baum, Thompson seems to have
worked from a base of popular conceptions about medieval cultures (e.g.,
imperial China informing the Silver Islands, courtly Europe behind Corabia,
Arabian monarchies behind such nations as Mudge, etc.).

Most aspects of Ozamaland seem to be based on the cultures of the south
Asian desert, from Arabia to Afghanistan: Tandy's people "dress in white
robes and turbans," for instance, and ride camels. But they also ride
elephants, which are naturally either African or Indian/Southeast Asian.
And the Ozamandarin name implies a connection with China or the countries
it influenced in Southeast Asia. Notably, both Ozamandarins and elephants
provide a chance for wordplay. Was that the reason Thompson gave herself
for tossing all sorts of Asian cultural references into an essentially
Arabian stew?

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Thu Jun 27, 2002  11:24 am
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

Charles Phipps wrote:
<<Actually this is a question I do have regarding the Octogon isle dwellers
because they are of course the first island really outside of Oz that
Captain Salt visits it seems. So the question comes down are they a
"civilized" nation that Ozma respects the soverignity of like Zixi or Ev or
were they sort of conquered out of hand?>>

Ozma's invitation to Ato and Roger to attend her celebration in WISHING
HORSE shows Oz has friendly and respectful relations with Octgaon Isle.
She's undoubtedly also grateful to Ato for his help in saving Oz from
Ruggedo.

<<I think one of the reasons Captain Salt was sent on this mission J is the
fact that Samuel and Ato are about as menacing as a three headed chicken.
Furthermore I think it should be noted Samuel Salt and Ato are hardly a
danger to any island whatsoever nor in a fairy country do I suspect their
weapons are superior.>>

In Baum's EMERALD CITY, Ozma is opposed to violence of any kind, and
therefore prefers to isolate Oz entirely from the rest of the world's
troubles rather than defend the kingdom by force against invaders. In
Thompson's CAPTAIN SALT, in contrast, she's given an ex-pirate orders to
expand her territory. He's not simply an explorer or ambassador or trade
representative; he's a "Conqueror." That's a significant change.

You seem to be saying that Ozma commissions Samuel Salt because she
considers him ineffectual. But she saw him use violence effectively in
PIRATES. She knows about the weapons on his ship, including cannon,
muskets, and swords. While he represents the type of conqueror she'd
prefer--preferring persuasion, reluctant to use force except in
self-defense--he's still armed and aggressive. If Ozma were actually
maintaining her policy of nonviolence, she wouldn't send Salt out at all.
That she does commission him shows a change in her foreign policy.

As for whose weapons are superior, that quibble seems to be grasping for
straws. Let's look at what actually happens. Captain Salt and his crew
overcome several societies in CAPTAIN SALT, never being captured,
conquered, or disabled themselves. Some of those societies have little
technology, so their weapons are inherently inferior. Some have magic, but
the CRESCENT MOON is also equipped with magical devices--superior magic, to
judge by how it enables Salt to conquer all comers.

<<Well not to defend Colonial Imperialism again but we shouldn't
necessarily say it's a dirty word in Fairy-land. Like it or not the
attempt to preserve cultures "as is" is invariably doomed to failure
because Cultures do evolve both independantly and through contact with
other cultures.>>

The peaceful and natural evolution of societies doesn't justify taking over
other peoples' territories by threats or force. Nor does the fact that many
societies have died out provide any justification for conquering those
societies that haven't. The remarks above seem to be arguing against
statements no one on this forum has made, and avoiding the statements that
members have made.

If you wish to argue that "Colonial Imperialism" is a good policy for Oz,
then your argument must address the statements Ozma makes in EMERALD CITY:
"No one has the right to destroy any living creatures, however evil they
may be, or to hurt them or make them unhappy. I will not fight, even to
save my kingdom." In those words, Ozma rejects the notion that coercion and
unhappiness can be justified by a greater good. I suggest that CAPTAIN SALT
represents a major change in that approach--which was quite probably never
realistic to begin with.

<<Ideas that are not shared or desired to be shared with other individuals
are ideas that have a name; ideas no one has ever heard of because everyone
who has them has died out.>>

Sorry, I can't parse this sentence. It seems to be missing some words.

<<Furthermore Samuel's mission is to find new territory for Oz foremost
which might include uninhabited islands. He furthermore knows very little
about the undiscovered peoples of the land so making a statement about them
first also would in this case probably be foolish.>>

Salt's mission is clearly not limited to uninhabited islands. Remarks based
on "very little" knowledge are ignorant whenever one makes them.

<<John I really love your insight but I think it's about time you accepted
Oz perhaps has three or four democracies or other alternative forms of
government inside it.>>

The fact that I wrote "the elite of Thompson's version of Oz [are] young
royalty" shows clearly that I recognize that situation. I don't know why
you feel I must accept something I've already stated. Especially since you
contradict your own statement above by writing...

<<Furthermore it seems unlikely the "Oz" royalty (such as the Queen of the
Quilties in Gnome King of Oz) is necessarily a hereditary title.>>

No one's said that all rulers in Oz gained their power through inheritance.
Even Thompson's Oz has a few examples of people coming to thrones in other
ways, usually by imposition from above (like the Quilties at the end of
GNOME KING). But once again that remark doesn't actually address the issue
at hand.

Thompson states in CAPTAIN SALT that a surfeit of "young princes" with no
territory to rule is why Oz needs to colonize other lands. (Note also that
she doesn't mention princesses.) Even if there are places in Oz without
hereditary dynasties, that doesn't change what Thompson wrote about these
landless princes expecting territory to rule and being willing to take
other people's lands outside Oz.

<<Kaliko for all we know has no hereditary claim to the throne of the
Nomes, The Nolanders of course have no monarchy of their own by blood,
Glinda rules by Witchcraft, Tin Woodsman/Lion/Scarecrow/Wizard etc of
course ruled by appointment. While these are mostly Baum we should take
note also that Ruggedo was chosen in Pirates like an application
form.>>

Actually, the first set of examples are ALL Baum, albeit not all presented
accurately. (Noland usually has a hereditary system; only when a king dies
without heirs must a new ruler be accounted for. Neither that example nor
the Nome Kingdom has anything to do with the system inside Oz. The Tin
Woodman has never had an S in his name.) Menankypoo is a poor example of
Thompson continuing that trend; at the end of PIRATES Ozma actually
restores its earlier king, implicitly delegitimizing the process that
brought Ruggedo to that throne.

Months ago when we discussed hereditary monarchy you presented a series of
arguments that it was a better system for Oz, the Great Outside World, or
both--the dividing lines, if any, were hard to discern. Now you seem to be
arguing that in fact hereditary dynasties don't predominate in Oz, while
also wishing to criticize me for stating that in Thompson's Oz they do. I'd
like to see a little more logical and factual consistency from you if this
conversation continues.

If you want to claim that in Thompson's Oz <<With single towns it's likely
each just selects a king and queen who adopts the trappings of monarchy>>,
please name several examples from her books of that happening. Then show
that there are more examples of those societies than of hereditary
dynasties like those we see in Pompadore, Ragbad, the Ozure Isles,
Corumbia, Corabia, Regalia, Seebania, Kereteria, and so on.

<<Yes JL Bell I saw the contradiction even before I wrote it. In this case
it's true...Ozma's government allows home rule for some absolutely insane
people....and treats them with more respect than they give back

As it should be>>

Why exactly is letting "absolutely insane people" harass and imprison
travelers for being different "As it should be"? I find this position
especially hard to reconcile with your remark that <<the attempt to
preserve cultures "as is" is invariably doomed to failure>>. If you apply
that attitude to the xenophobic communities in Thompson's Oz, then what you
see as Ozma's choice to preserve such communities isn't "as it should be,"
but misguided and doomed.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Fri Jun 28, 2002  9:52 am
Subject:  Captain Salt's insanity

Aaron Adelman wrote:
<<Charles, I think you may have a point about Capt. Salt being insane. I
find myself wondering if he really does have a mandate from Ozma to
colonize already-inhabited places. Maybe he's just delusional about doing
anything other than exploring.>>

I was wondering about that last possibility, too. CAPTAIN SALT is unique in
the Reilly & Lee series as not having any scenes in Oz, and in fact we see
no native Ozian characters. (Salt seems to have become a subject of Ozma
late in life, while Ato and Roger are Octagonese.)

That means we have no independent confirmation of Salt's claims. Like Gen
Jack D. Ripper in DR. STRANGELOVE, he may be acting on his own, either
deluded about his mandate or believing that if he expands Ozma's empire
she's bound to thank him for it.

There's no indication from Thompson that she doubted Salt was acting on
Ozma's orders, however, nor that she thought his actions were wrong. And,
barring proof of a delusion or deception as we're discussing, I'm not sure
the evidence for Salt's insanity is convincing.

On the other hand, a long time ago I wrote a follow-up to CAPTAIN SALT in
which the captain was clearly in the deep end of the Nonestic, obsessed
like Captain Ahab with finding a particular specimen.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Sun Jun 30, 2002  12:14 am
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] Re: CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

Charlie:
>[She knows about the weapons on his ship, including cannon,muskets,
>and swords. While he represents the type of conqueror she'd prefer--
>preferring persuasion, reluctant to use force except in self-defense--
>he's still armed and aggressive. If Ozma were actually maintaining
>her policy of nonviolence, she wouldn't send Salt out at all. That
>she does commission him shows a change in her foreign policy.]
>
>This is a definate question that does disturb me JL that is of course
>whether Ozma does indeed know about the rather large armaments.
>
>From Samuel Salt's first chapter...
>
>'...waiting for this voyage three years, eleven months, twenty-six
>days and twelve hours. Where've you been, you great lazy son of a sea-
>robber?"
>"Four years?" choked the Pirate, falling back in real consternation
>and dismay. "Never! It's never been four years, Mates. Why, I've
>scarcely had time to sort out the shells and specimens we picked up
>on the last voyage, and to fit out the $$Crescent Moon&& for the
>next."
>"Where have you been?" repeated Ato, wagging his finger sternly.
>"Why, home on Elbow Island, of course. Where else should I have
>been?" muttered Samuel, looking distinctly worried and crestfallen.
>
>and later
>
>
>'"Ah, but wait till you see her now!" exclaimed Samuel, cheering up
>immediately at mention of his ship. "The $$Crescent Moon&&, besides a
>new coat of paint, has self-hoisting sails and a mechanical steering
>control in case we wish to take it easy occasionally. The Red Jinn
>paid me a visit and presented us with these and several other magical
>contrivances and improvements. I'm minded to make this voyage with no
>crew but ourselves. It's cozier so, don't you think?"'
>
>It's entirely possible our insane captain (Who I suspect might be
>delusional) acquired the rather large assortment of weapons, guns,
>and other pirate apparel from either Ev with the Red Jinn (unlikely)
>or perhaps some previous hidey-ho of the Capatin and Crew. No
>offense JL but do you find it likely that one can find all the sort
>of weaponry in the Emerald City or Oz?

The ship and its crew were certainly armed in PIRATES, though, and it seems
like Ozma would have known this. Peter fired a cannon at Godorkas' castle
boat, so there must have been some on the ship at that point. Other weapons
are mentioned within the text, but I can't come up with any specific
examples just now.

>Rephrased: Oz can't remain stagnant but must grow as a fairyland lest
>it's ideals die out

Does this really apply in a land that everyone lives forever?

>Throughout history young men who are second and third
>sons have gone off to seek adventure and gain for their families and
>future kingdoms, it's even the subject of Grampa.

Tatters seems to be an only son, actually, but the fact that his father is
immortal means that his chances of inheriting the throne are slim. Still,
he does not seek another kingdom, but a fortune for his own kingdom.

Nathan

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sun Jun 30, 2002  8:20 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

Charles Phipps wrote:
<<As an official Ozmalogist I've always tried to figure out ways to
reconcile the pacifistic figure in the Emerald City of Oz with her
occasionally odd choices in even Baum (the execution of Eureka) and just
came to the conclusion long ago sometimes she makes mistakes inconsistent
with her ideals. Thompson on the other hand paints a fairly bloodthirsty
picture of Ozma (Cowardly Lion of Oz and Lost King for her extemination
policy on Witches) on occasion and I'm of the mind she's not likely to go
that far.>>

"An official Ozmalogist," Charles? I don't think that's an office anyone
has the authority to grant. And when we're discussing whether characters
are <<delusional>>, it's wise to keep our feet planted in
reality.

In my eyes, your postings show more than just study of Ozma. They also
argue that she's almost always blameless. Your statements reveal a
consistent desire to preserve an image of <<the little girl ruler who I
admit I have a tendancy to view as can doing no wrong>>. Many of the
resulting arguments aren't based solely on evidence and logic--indeed,
often those fine qualities get thrown out the window. When, as you describe
above, books show Ozma to be more ruthless than you'd like, you decide that
evidence must be wrong. To coin a word, you're actually an "Ozmapologist."

In the case of CAPTAIN SALT, I read your messages as claiming BOTH that
Samuel Salt is going beyond his mandate and that Ozma is correct in trying
to expand her empire. BOTH that Ozma knows about <<the occasional gapping
holes in her subject's wisdom>>, which in Salt's case would be actual
<<insanity>>, yet that she knows nothing about his weapons and working
methods and believes he's harmless. BOTH that Ozma's right to tolerate and
preserve nasty little dictatorships within Oz and that's she right to take
over and change societies outside Oz. BOTH that everything Thompson shows
Ozma doing in this book is right and proper and that Thompson depicts her
as too <<bloodthirsty>>.

My point all along has been that Thompson portrays Ozma's political
philosophy quite differently from how Baum does. In Thompson's books Ozma
is:
a) less committed to nonviolence
b) less concerned with judicial proceedings
c) less open to people choosing who will rule them
d) less active in creating economic equality
e) unwilling to cut off contact with the world outside Oz
f) more concerned with reinstating and preserving hereditary dynasties
g) more eager to quickly punish people who harm her friends
h) more willing to expand her realm
CAPTAIN SALT is the strongest evidence of point h, and also reinforces
points e and a.

There are various ways to interpret those trends. Ozma could change her
mind as she learns more; she takes a big turn away from interventionism
between OZMA and EMERALD CITY, and then becomes more activist by GLINDA.
Oz's situation could also change--though we don't really see how. Both of
those changes would be significant in discussing Oz as history.

Alternatively, we could interpret the contrast for what it shows us about
Baum's and Thompson's world-views (which is how I usually approach the
issue). And we could say that one author or the other is actually less
reliable as a reporter of her policies and motivations, though that would
obviate any need to justify those policies and motivations.

It's very hard, however, to argue that while all the books are reliable
Ozma doesn't change, and that in going from one absolute to another she
remains wise, just, and consistent. Yet that's what an Ozmapologist
does--respond to any possible shadow on Ozma's image with claims that she
must have been in the right, we just need to find the proper blend of
assumptions, evasions, and arguments to show that.

<<JL I know you consider my comments ill founded and spoken from distant
memory more often than not which makes me a difficult person to argue with
on occasion (and frequently wrong) so I will oblige you from this point on
with direct passage citations and my opinions on them.

From Pirates in Oz, Del Ray Edition

'Breaking into a run, Samuel Salt reached the locked golden doors, put his
great shoulders against them and with one tremendous shove broke them open.
And it was the pirate who grasped Ruggedo and shook him so violently that
the conjurer's stick fell out of his hand'

J.L. what is described above is violent and it is effective I must
admit>>

Thank you for acknowledging the facts I wrote about Ozma's seeing Captain
Salt use violence effectively. It's indeed hard to claim she couldn't
perceive the seaman's potential for violence when Thompson describes him
acting "violently." This passage shows the folly of calling Salt
<<as menacing as a three headed chicken>> and <<hardly a
danger>>, as you earlier wrote.

I also appreciate your choice to start using quotations from the books
rather than wishful memories of them. (Though you may wish to note that the
paperback publisher of PIRATES was spelled "Del Rey.")

<<This is a definate question that does disturb me JL that is of course
whether Ozma does indeed know about the rather large armaments.>>

So let's examine this question. What evidence is there that Ozma would know
about the weaponry aboard the CRESCENT MOON?
1) At the end of PIRATES the entire ship, which we know contains
cannons, muskets, pistols, and swords, is sitting in her garden.
2) Peter tells Ozma all about his adventures on the CRESCENT MOON,
which included firing a cannon at another vessel.
3) Pigasus, who's seen his previous home damaged by that cannon,
becomes a talkative favorite at Ozma's court.
4) With her Magic Picture, Ozma has the habit of looking in on
friends--especially when she's sent them off on missions.

What contrary evidence exists in CAPTAIN SALT that Ozma knows nothing about
the weapons on the CRESCENT MOON? None at all.

<<No offense JL but do you find it likely that one can find all the sort of
weaponry in the Emerald City or Oz? Ozma herself might be able to create it
with her belt but it seems to defy occam's razor.>>

Why should I take offense if other people risk embarrassment? In this case,
the simplest explanation of existing evidence is that the CRESCENT MOON has
the same weaponry on it in CAPTAIN SALT as we saw in PIRATES. Not a word
supports speculation that Salt acquired new arms between the books. Neither
Roger nor Ato comments about new weapons; instead, they refer to their old
ones. The equipment we know Jinnicky installed all has to do with sailing
the ship. To suggest that the MOON must have been stripped of its previous
weapons and then secretly reequipped is a needless complication with no
evidence to support it--just what Occam's razor slices away.

The question of where in Oz Salt might find weapons is therefore moot.
Nevertheless, I urge you to recall the guns and swords we see in WIZARD,
LAND, OZMA, EMERALD CITY, TIK-TOK, SCARECROW, TIN WOODMAN, MAGIC, KABUMPO,
JACK PUMPKINHEAD, YELLOW KNIGHT, PURPLE PRINCE, and OJO before you next
state that such weapons aren't available in Oz. (Interestingly, TIK-TOK
suggests that guns were unknown in the Nome Kingdom before the Oogaboo army
arrived--so they might be more plentiful in Oz than in Ev.)

<<I am not arguing John that Ozma has a right to (or even wants to) force
nations under her delicate manicure.
...
I am arguing however that Oz has a right to make contact with other
societies however and attempt to bring them into the fold of Oz if they
desire.>>

What's the crucial distinction between these actions? It appears to lie in
the use of force. Now if Ozma were so concerned about not forcing countries
under her protection, why would she send an armed ship rather than her most
peaceable (but magically protected) ambassador? Why would she give Samuel
Salt a mandate to be a "Conqueror," as he claims? There are only two ways
to reconcile the facts:
a) Salt's claim is false, either deceptive or delusional, and Ozma
is completely ignorant of his actions, or
b) Ozma is willing to subject other nations to force for the
greater good of Oz or the world--a major change from EMERALD CITY.

<<Ideas that are not shared or desired to be shared with other individuals
are ideas that have a name; ideas no one has ever heard of because everyone
who has them has died out.
...
Rephrased: Oz can't remain stagnant but must grow as a fairyland lest it's
ideals die out>>

These are, to say the least, novel ways to express the same thought.
Regardless, that approach seems to be exactly opposite what Ozma, Glinda,
and Dorothy expressed at the end of EMERALD CITY:

"Those who come to the edge of the desert, or try
to cross it, will catch no glimpse of Oz, or know in
what direction it lies. No one will try to tunnel to
us again because we cannot be seen and therefore
cannot be found. In other words, the Land of Oz will
entirely disappear from the knowledge of the rest of
the world."
"That's all right," said Dorothy, cheerfully.
"You may make Oz invis'ble as soon as you please, for
all I care."
"It is already invisible," Glinda stated. "I knew
Ozma's wishes, and performed the Magic Spell before
you arrived."
Ozma seized the hand of the Sorceress and pressed
it gratefully.
"Thank you!" she said.

In EMERALD CITY, Ozma enthusiastically signs onto the plan that Oz will
"entirely disappear from the knowledge of the rest of the world." In
CAPTAIN SALT, you suggest, she follows an imperial need to propagate
knowledge of Oz and Ozian values (nonviolence through violence? tolerance
through takeovers?). Again, that would be a significant shift that deserves
examination, not denial.

<<I'm aware of such but I'm speculating on what the little girl ruler
imagined this situation to be.>>

In that case, I suggest you:
a) start with a base of what Ozma knew rather than an overly
hopeful belief about her selective ignorance.
b) indicate in your remarks about <<Colonial Imperialism>> that
you're engaging in such speculation. When you express ideas as absolutes,
as in your last message, readers naturally take them as an expression of
your own firm beliefs.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sun Jun 30, 2002  8:20 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT young princes

Charles Phipps wrote:
<<[Thompson states in CAPTAIN SALT that a surfeit of "young princes" with
no territory to rule is why Oz needs to colonize other lands. (Note also
that she doesn't mention princesses.) Even if there are places in Oz
without hereditary dynasties, that doesn't change what Thompson wrote about
these landless princes expecting territory to rule and being willing to
take other people's lands outside Oz.]

What I'm suggesting is John that your reading too much into that statement
and the 'royalty' of Oz is usually the people dumped on by their subjects
the position (Scraps for instance) or honestly elites (the Bearded Baron in
Jack, Realbad, Kambumpo's young prince etc).>>

My original comment was that "the elite of Thompson's version of Ozian
society [are] young royalty." Here you also use the word "elites," which
just brings us back to my original. And your three examples are all male
rulers within dynastic aristocracies, as I wrote.

For most people, I'd think there was something irrational about denying
something and then quickly affirming it. In this case, while not discarding
the irrationality hypothesis, I recognize that it's mostly a knee-jerk
desire to disagree. That urge was obvious well before you wrote <<I enjoy
playing the Devil's advocate if you honestly wish to know.>> This isn't the
first time you've expressed opposing opinions within the same week. It was
interesting in this case to see how quickly--within a day!--you turned from
criticizing Samuel Salt's mission to trying to justify it as soon as other
people also criticized it.

As for your other notion that <<the 'royalty' of Oz is usually the people
dumped on by their subjects>>, I've already suggested you tally up the
number of such examples in Thompson's books. So far you've repeated a
single, temporary example quashed by Ozma in favor of a new ruler she
imposed from above. I named eight Ozian kingdoms in the Thompson books
where she's supported hereditary dynasties, and could name more.

The very phrase "young princes" implies that those people are heirs to
Ozian monarchs, nor yet rulers themselves (and not just <<second and third
sons>>, as a moment's thought about immortality in Oz would show). If those
young men were actually being called upon by societies to rule them, why
would they need new territory to do so? Why wouldn't they take up residence
in those eager communities?

No, there's no escaping the implication of Thompson's statement: in Oz
"there was scarcely room for another castle. With young Princes growing up
on every hand, Roger could well sympathize with the need of Ozma for more
territory." The author implies that princes deserve land to rule, and that
such a need justifies Ozma's decision to expand her territory.

I can easily imagine other reasons for Ozma's expansionism:
* With so many immortal farmers, Oz is running out of tillable land
for the bulk of its people.
* Some Ozians would be happier living by the ocean, which they
obviously can't do in a landlocked country surrounded by desert.
* Oz needs to establish more "Defensive Settlements" (see EMERALD
CITY) or special-interest communities.
* Skamperoo's nearly successful coup in WISHING HORSE shows the
need to forge closer bonds with surrounding countries, through the
traditional diplomatic combination of carrot and stick.

All of these reasons would benefit a larger number of Ozians than the
"young princes" Roger considers. But Thompson's characters express none of
the reasons above. They do occasionally remark on the advantages awaiting
people who come under Ozma's rule, but those benefits don't come first on
their lists of reasons for this mission. Basically, Thompson asks her
readers to assume that whatever benefits Ozma and "young princes" in Oz is
worth cheering for, regardless of whose rights might be stepped on.

<<I'm suggesting though that as the elite they should perhaps be more
likened to Astronauts or other superior folk than necessarily people who
don't deserve such and we have no idea they are willing to take over
people's lands.>>

And why would "young princes" be <<superior folk>>?  As far as we can tell,
the only thing that distinguishes these princes from the other young men of
Oz is that they're born into royal families and unable to find anything
useful to do. That doesn't sound so <<superior>> to me. There's been only
one astronaut from a royal family, which hardly argues for equating those
groups.

<<[Months ago when we discussed hereditary monarchy you presented a series
of arguments that it was a better system for Oz, the Great Outside World,
or both--the dividing lines, if any, were hard to discern. Now you seem to
be arguing that in fact hereditary dynasties don't predominate in Oz, while
also wishing to criticize me for stating that in Thompson's Oz they do. I'd
like to see a little more logical and factual consistency from you if this
conversation continues.]

Since that time John I've acquired a great deal more Thompson books
and read a great deal more about the system that has lead me to
believe Thompson wasn't nearly so pro-monarchy as I thought she
was.>>

Evidence, please?

<<If you don't understand my mindset try and understand that I'm a
Southerner and while the Dern Yankees may have had a 'right' to invade
their sister nation below the Mason Dixie line and loot, pillage, rape, and
murder....it was hardly a suppression of a revolt in territories that
belonged to them but ceased being part of the greater nation in our mind
the moment we ceased to recognize it.>>

Actually, Charles, if being from a secessionist state is what defines a
Southerner, you're not one. You also wrote, "I'm a Kentuckian," and
Kentucky never seceded from the USA. Your presentation of the rest of the
Civil War is, of course, equally flawed and probably motivated by the
desire to say something disagreeable, so we needn't discuss it.

<<Furthermore I personally am a great believer in the monarchial system
that it is hardly the worst system in the world and certainly a great deal
more romantic and pomp than democracy.>>

So you base your political philosophy on finding the system that puts on
the best parades and is better than utter chaos. Interesting approach.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  David Hulan <dhulan at w...>
Date:  Mon Jul 1, 2002  6:20 pm
Subject:  Some thoughts on CAPTAIN SALT

This is the earliest FF Oz book that I first read as an adult, the
others being HANDY MANDY, WONDER CITY, SCALAWAGONS, HIDDEN VALLEY, and
MERRY-GO-ROUND (which last wasn't published until I was an adult). The
lady who loaned me the Oz books I didn't own as a kid only had them
through WISHING HORSE (her younger son apparently "outgrew" Oz at that
point), and I owned SILVER PRINCESS, OZOPLANING, LUCKY BUCKY, and the
two Snows, the last three of which I got as they were published.

Probably as a consequence of that, I was bothered by the Ozian
imperialism the first time I read it. I hadn't been particularly
bothered by the imperialism in OZOPLANING when I read it as a kid
(though I thought the Tin Woodman's aggressive claiming of Stratovania
for Ozma was pretty stupid in the circumstances), whether because I was
a kid or because in 1945 or so when I read it imperialism was considered
more couth than it was even ten years later, much less 20 or so when I
finally read CAPTAIN SALT.

And because I didn't care for the imperialism, I've never cared greatly
for the book - interrupting what was otherwise what I consider
Thompson's best work, from OJO through SILVER PRINCESS. The other five
books in that period are, imho, her five best books, with only LOST KING
and YELLOW KNIGHT even coming within sniffing distance.

CAPTAIN SALT does have two unique features that set it aside from all
the other FF books. First, as John Bell has said, it's the only Oz book
that takes place entirely outside the Deadly Desert. Second, it's the
only one in which a juvenile character actually changes from the
beginning to the end (or really the middle) of the book. In all the
others the juvenile lead(s) are much the same in personality and
character after their adventures that they were before - they do things,
and have things done to them, but they aren't affected in any
significant way. Dorothy - the most frequently appearing by far - is
little different in MERRY-GO-ROUND from the way she was in OZMA, and any
changes between WIZARD and OZMA take place off-stage. It's true that a
few of them fall in love (Pompa, Tatters, Randy), but they still react
to everything else about the same as they did before. Tandy is the only
one who starts off rather unpleasant and learns to be pleasant. The
change is rather abrupt and not particularly well motivated, but at
least he does change.

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Mon Jul 1, 2002  10:18 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] Re: CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

Charlie:
>Admittadly he knocked over the Shell people to steal their garbage
>but that just means Samuel is a theif

It's been a little while since I last read PIRATES, but I think he knocked
them over in order to escape from them, and taking their garbage was an
afterthought. It wasn't a planned robbery. Besides, Samuel is careful to
take only what the Shellbacks considered garbage anyway, and, when Ato took
something that Salt thought the natives might actually consider valuable
(the shell-bound books), the captain left gold coins to pay for them.

>Also if I don't miss my guess the Dictator of the Skeezers guards
>were armed with a type of gun.

It was the Flatheads who had a Dictator, but it was the Skeezer guards who
were armed with gun-like weapons (I'm pretty sure Baum specifically stated
they weren't really guns, although they resembled them).

>This is a very interesting question and one that does bear
>examining. It might be interesting though that Samuel Salt merely
>interpreted Ozma's words to her in Pirates in Oz in a peculiar way....
>
>["No it's not, no it's not!" Jumping to her feet Ozma raised her
>sceptre. I hereby decree Samuel Salt shall give up piracy and become
>our royal discoverer and Explorer; take possession of new countries
>and set the flag of Oz on far islands and mountain tops]
>
>It is entirely possible that Ozma and Samuel merely had a
>misunderstanding based on Ozma's poorly chosen wording.

How else would you interpret these words, aside from how Samuel did?

>As for using
>the Cresent Moon let's not forget that the Cresent Moon is the only
>ship Oz presently has as a landlocked nation and Ozma may have wanted
>Samuel to keep the armaments etc as a defense mechanism or to look
>impressive, knowing they wouldn't be used. There's possibly also Sea
>monsters or other fairyland difficulties though I admit this is
>reaching.

Not really, since there the crew DOES encounter several sea monsters during
CAPTAIN SALT. They don't use weapons to defeat them, however, unless you
count the vine and saw used against the narwhal.

Nathan

From:  Tigerbooks at a...
Date:  Tue Jul 2, 2002  7:43 pm
Subject:  The Ozziness of CAPTAIN SALT and that darn Geozzify

I am sorry I have not been following the CAPTAIN SALT discussion very closely--I always
liked the book. Perhaps not as an "Oz" book as much as an RPT book.
It seems to me that RPT often did better when she was dealing exclusively with
HER characters.

That said, I don't recall anyone in this discussion talking about how CAPTAIN
SALT came to be written and the effect that it had on the book's structure. As
outlined in the IWWOC's edition of SALT, RPT had just gotten her job editing
KING COMICS for David McKay and wanted to go in with a bang and tried to
interest Reilly and Lee in "serializing" her new Oz book in KING
COMICS. Thus CAPTAIN SALT was likely written with serialization in mind and the
episodic nature of going from one isle to the next worked very well. Also,
cutting out so many of the Oz characters may have been a way of allowing new
readers easier access to the material. And if you missed an episode or two
nothing much was lost. A reader would pick up an issue of KING COMICS and he'd
still find the jolly Ato, the Cap'n, and Tandy having generic oceanic
adventures. Sort of like an Ozzy soap opera on the high seas! Of course if you
WERE following closely -- you could follow the overall "Tandy" story
arc.

Well, R&L said no to Thompson and CAPTAIN SALT wasn't serialized.
Undoubtedly, when CAPTAIN SALT in KING COMICS bit the dust-- RPT had to hustle
and she cranked out KING KOJO as the comic book serial. Perhaps accounting for
that book's sloppy writing and equally episodic lack of plot.

Now for something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!

When I was a mid-teenager I submitted a wordy and overanalyzed paper on the
geography of Ozamaland and Nonestica to the Oz research table. In which I
suggested that in ancient times Ozamaland and Oz were connected.

This massive continent had both gray and white people on it. The white ones
were "good" and the "gray" not so good. Well, when Lurline
was planning the "enchantment" she thought it well to ditch the nasty
gray folks--thus she caused a great fault and sent a big piece of Nonestica
adrift with "most" of the grays on it. Alas some whitefolks were
stuck on the new Ozmaland, too and the division occurred on the new kingdom
between grays and whites.  And, too, on Nonestica some grays were left
behind. You see Ozamaland had broken off what is the current coast of Ev! And
in the massive earthquakes etc., from the breakup, the grays that were left
behind in Nonestica were trapped, or sheltered themselves, underground.

Hence Ozamaland is riddled with the gray/white conflict in a
"lateral" fashion; while Nonestica is riddled with a gray/white
conflict in a "vertical" one! i.e. Nomes vs. Ev/Oz. I went on for a
good deal longer and found many other "secrets" about the history of
Ozamaland and Nonestica. The most important being that shy teenage boys, who
like Oz far too much, probably had better things to do with their time than
write papers for the research table   : )

Best, David M
Tigerbooks at aol.com

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Wed Jul 3, 2002  11:33 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Ozamandarins

Scott Hutchins wrote:
<<te Communist government enforced the use of Mandarin
dialect everywhere but her native Hong Kong, and only then because HK was a
British colony until after she moved here.>>

When Thompson refers to "Ozamandarins," she alludes to the class of Chinese
government officials called Mandarins, not the language or ethnic group
associated with them.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan at p...>
Date:  Thu Jul 4, 2002  12:43 am
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] CAPTAIN SALT Ozamandarins

Hi All--

"J. L. Bell" wrote:
>
> Scott Hutchins wrote:
> <<te Communist government enforced the use of Mandarin
> dialect everywhere but her native Hong Kong, and only then because HK was a
> British colony until after she moved here.>>
>
> When Thompson refers to "Ozamandarins," she alludes to the class of Chinese
> government officials called Mandarins, not the language or ethnic group
> associated with them.
>

As a point of pedantry, it's not the "Mandarin dialect" under any
definition of dialect. What we Westerners call "Mandarin" is a
language, not a dialect, and is properly called either "Zhongwen" or
"Potunghua." It's a tonal language, with four tones--no tone, rising
tone, falling tone, and a tone that falls, then rises.

Cantonese (and I'm sorry I don't know what it's really called) has nine
tones, and is no more related to Potunghua than is Vietnamese (tieng
Viet), which has six tones.

Metta,
Ivan
----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
God N Locomotive Works

Army Signal Corps: Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author: Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Fri Jul 5, 2002  4:24 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Reilly & Lee

Joe Bongiorno wrote:
<<The more I hear about Reilly and Lee the more I realize what a bunch of
idiots they were! An ongoing Cap'n Sal comic would have been very cool!
What a shame they were so short-sighted.>>

Ironically, Thompson dedicated CAPTAIN SALT to her publisher.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  3:18 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT imperialism

I've now finished rereading CAPTAIN SALT, and can resume the tedious habit
of citing passages by page numbers.

Nathan DeHoff wrote:
<<>["No it's not, no it's not!" Jumping to her feet Ozma raised her
>sceptre. I hereby decree Samuel Salt shall give up piracy and become
>our royal discoverer and Explorer; take possession of new countries
>and set the flag of Oz on far islands and mountain tops]
>
>It is entirely possible that Ozma and Samuel merely had a
>misunderstanding based on Ozma's poorly chosen wording.

How else would you interpret these words, aside from how Samuel
did?>>

One Oz-as-history possibility is that when Ozma said, "take possession of
new countries," she really meant countries that were new to humans and
other sentient creatures, and therefore free for the taking. Captain Salt
seems to have interpreted the phrase through something like NBC's obnoxious
slogan for summer reruns a few seasons back: "If you haven't seen it, it's
NEW TO YOU!"

Similarly, when Ozma spoke of a mission to "set the flag of Oz on far
islands and mountain tops," she may have had in mind the way mountaineers
left their nations' flags on Everest or explorers left theirs on the
Poles--as a symbol of reaching that spot, not as a sign of possession. But
Salt and Roger feel they have a mandate for playing some sort of imperial
game of Tag, seeing legal force in leaving a flag of Oz wherever they
choose.

In this reinterpretation, the most important part of Ozma's speech in
PIRATES comes at the start: "I hereby decree Samuel Salt shall give up
piracy." She may not care what Salt does with his time as long as he's no
longer bothering innocent people. Having him fuss around uninhabited "far
islands and mountain tops" could be her way of keeping him busy.  However,
Thompson doesn't seem to have had such qualms, and leaves us no indication
that Ozma would oppose Salt's activities in CAPTAIN SALT.

The closer we examine some of Captain Salt's activities, the more
egregiously colonialist they appear. For instance, Thompson refers to the
volcano dwellers as "Lavaland islanders" [57-8], but Salt insists on giving
their island a new name on his chart: Salamander Island [74]. Salt later
uses the term "Lavaland" [237], so he seems to know what the place's real
name is. By renaming it, he's symbolically claimed it for himself from its
rightful inhabitants. He also scrubs clean the history of his encounter
with that island, writing that it occurred "without a shot or the loss of a
single man."
"Don't forget, you shot the baby," twittered Roger, raising a claw argumentatively.
"Oh, we can't put in small details like that," sniffed the Captain.
We could read this as a parody of imperialist arrogance if Thompson gave
any hint that she thought Captain Salt was not simply eccentric but in the
wrong.

Ruth Berman wrote:
<<Also worrisome is the Captain's attempts to collect intelligent beings as
specimens. Ato and Roger stop him when he tries to keep the lava baby, and
during much of the narrative his collection mania is presented as something
too enthusiastic, needing correction by his friends, but by the time he
geets to Seewegia, he gets to keep the jelly-boy, and the narrative
comments have pretty much stopped undercutting his scientific interests as
a mania in need of correction.>>

This is especially odd considering that nearly everything about the
Seewegia episode seems set up for Salt to learn a lesson about such
collecting. The chapter is titled "The Collector Is Collected," a phrase
Roger echoes [243]. The captain's caught in a glass container much like
those in which he keeps his own specimens. As Salt does with his captives
(and as the Leopard Men do with Tandy), the Seewegians are trying feed him
their food to see if he survives [244]. They're exhibiting him [248], just
as he plans to show off his specimens in Oz [e.g., 130].

It's interesting to compare this episode to the "The Land of the Civilized
Monkeys," the twelfth surprise in MO. In that story Prince Zingle learns a
lesson from having been captured and displayed in a zoo by apes (though the
lesson is no more far-reaching than not to fly big kites anymore). In
contrast, in this chapter of CAPTAIN SALT, the seaman learns nothing--not
even the lesson Ato wishes he would "about reckless collectors who got
themselves and their shipmates collected" [253]. Salt shows no more empathy
for the sentient specimens he collects than he did before.

Nathan DeHoff wrote:
<<the crew DOES encounter several sea monsters during CAPTAIN SALT.  They
don't use weapons to defeat them, however, unless you count the vine and
saw used against the narwhal.>>

Captain Salt fires his blunderbuss at the crocodiles on Patrippany Island
[92] and at the sea monster [163-4]. In the first instance he's trying "to
frighten off the rest of the crocodiles," so he may be aiming into the air;
in the second, however, he's definitely trying to hurt the sea monster.
But, unlike in PIRATES, where we saw dead birds and damaged castles, we
never see the MOON's guns do any damage in CAPTAIN SALT.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  5:04 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT timing

Thompson makes several explicit remarks about the timing of events in
CAPTAIN SALT that, unfortunately, don't add up.

The first to appear is the amount of time since Salt dropped Ato off on
Octagon Isle after PIRATES: 3 years, 11 months, 26 days, and 12 hours, or
almost four years [23]. Five years actually elapsed between the two books'
publication dates. Thompson usually made events in Oz approximate her
books' publication schedules, and usually with no more exact agreement than
that.

In those nearly four years, Salt returned Ato and Roger to Octagon Isle,
went home to Elbow Island, and had the MOON refurbished by Jinnicky. He
recalls doing nothing else, and in fact lost track of the time [32-3]. Yet
in that same stretch, Captain Salt claims to have been knighted by Ozma and
to have received new instructions about "discovering" or "conquering"
(depending on what moment he speaks) new lands for Oz. The knighthood is
definitely news to Ato [30], and the mission seems to be as well.

Furthermore, it's clear that the old pirate crew hasn't reunited in that
time. Ato also speaks of having been to Oz only once [75]. As Nathan DeHoff
pointed out when we discussed WISHING HORSE, both those statements present
a contradiction with the pirates' presence together in that book's Emerald
City parade. I can think of several explanations, some quite complex:
* CAPTAIN SALT actually took place before WISHING HORSE, starting
four years after the events of PIRATES, but was for some reason published
afterward. In that case, Salt's honored place in the parade would imply
that Ozma heartily approved of his actions in CAPTAIN SALT. But we'd have
to wonder what became of Tandy and Nikobo.
* Salt and Ato were in Oz for Ozma's parade but suffered such an
amnesia from Skamperoo's spell that they remember nothing about their
visit.
* The events of WISHING HORSE immediately followed those in
PIRATES, so Ato and Salt were on the same visit. It would make sense for
Ozma to stop Thompson from reporting Skamperoo's takeover until she had
sufficient protection against it happening again. But also in the WISHING
HORSE parade is the royal family of Seebania, so that book has to take
place after the events of OJO, and there's no similar reason for Ozma to
suppress Ojo's story.
* Most simply, Thompson was wrong when she had Ato and his friends
invited to the Emerald City in WISHING HORSE. All the other monarchs in
attendance except Jinnicky are from inside Oz. Even Evardo, a friendly king
from outside Oz mentioned in the same book, isn't invited.

That Captain Salt claims he got his knighthood and his sailing orders from
Ozma without actually seeing her or leaving his lonely Elbow Island
laboratory might lend credence to the idea that those are delusions. In
that case, we can imagine Ozma's hearty surprise when she starts receiving
messages from Peakenspire or Ozamaland describing an imperial arrangement
she knows nothing about.

Another timing issue involves Tandy's life. Here we have to assemble bits
and pieces from several places. Soon after he was born, it appears, Tandy's
parents "disappeared," according to him [146]; "accidentally fell into the
sea," as Chunum heard [286]; or were "destroyed," as Didjabo admits [257].

(One question that occurred to me was whether Tandy's father ever assumed
the throne. The boy first calls himself "King and son of a King's son"
[111], showing his grandfather was king but not necessarily his father.
Only later, when he's feeling ambivalent about being a king himself, does
Tandy call himself a "King's son and son of a King's son" [273].  Perhaps
he's like his father to come back and rule in his place.)

After the disappearance of his parents and Boglodore's prophecy about an
aunt, Tandy was "locked up in the Tower" [203]. Ato estimates he was there
"for ten years" [153]. That seems to match Thompson's initial description
of Tandy as "a little boy" [107]. Chunum later says, "Death comes not to
the people of my country" [290], implying they're immortal like Ozians--but
do they avoid aging as well? If they did, would Tandy have any reason not
to age normally? Probably not.

Here comes the next temporal anomaly. Everyone agrees that it's been five
and a half months since Tandy was kidnapped to Patripanny Island. However,
they all agree to that figure on different days. Tandy says he's counted
"five months and a half" of imprisonment by gnawing daily marks on his cage
[109]. Nikobo agrees that she started talking "five months ago last Herb
Day" [98], which can't be more than five months and two weeks [216].

Then some time passes while Tandy sails on the CRESCENT MOON. Ken Shepherd
estimates it as three weeks "in order to give Tandy time to acclimatize" in
his chronology of all the Oz books (available on Nonestica's Files page).
Thompson certainly wrote of "days that followed" his promotion to cabin boy
[168], and at least four days pass between Peakenspire and Ozamaland.

Yet on the day that the CRESCENT MOON reaches Ozamaland, Boglodore tells
the Ozamandarins it's been "five months and two weeks" since he stole
Tandy, which would also have to include the "two days" of flight to
Patrippany [260].

The best factual explanation is that Thompson's report of Boglodore's
conversation with the Ozamandarins is inaccurate. None of those men seem to
be around at the end of the book, and certainly none is on the CRESCENT
MOON. But in that case she did a poor job of recreating their conversation,
and missed an opportunity to tell us how long the MOON had taken to sail
from Patrippany to Om.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  5:04 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Patrippany Island

I've previously pronounced the name of the island where Boglodore left
Tandy with the emphasis on the first and third syllables, the same as in
"patrimony." But characters make such a big deal about the word the name
containing the word "trip" [98, 124] that I now believe Thompson accented
the second and fourth syllables, and was probably inspired by the New
Jersey town of Parsippany.

There are two mysteries about this island that are harder to fathom, and
both involve water. First, Thompson says the Biggenlittle is "a wide river
cutting through the center of the island from end to end." In that case,
wouldn't Patrippany be two islands with a saltwater strait? Nikobo is
clearly used to fresh water [170], but where does that come from?

Second, why did the Leopard Men who inhabit that island suddenly paddle
away less than two weeks before the CRESCENT MOON arrived, only to be
engulfed in a "great hurricane" [105]?

Thompson doesn't much seem to care about this entire people being wiped
out. The Leopard Men have a language [99]; cook some of their food [114];
fashion weapons [99], including relatively humane ones [124]; and do
nothing to Tandy but try to feed him [114]. Yet Thompson and her seaman
hero treat those people as nothing more than "savages" [102].  Well before
spotting a soul, Salt is half-expecting "to feel an arrow in my back"
[86--compare that to Roger's supposedly civilized advice to shoot Nikobo
with a blunderbuss "behind the ear," 94]. The Leopard Men's loss doesn't
matter to anyone except Samuel, who responds "peevishly" because he can't
grab one as a specimen [105].

Why such contempt? Nikobo certainly doesn't like the Leopard Men's
bellicosity, but Thompson has shown us other warring islanders (e.g.,
Roaraway and Norraway in SPEEDY) that don't get summarily drowned.
Similarly, though the Leopard Men are half-animal, with "long tusks" [99]
and "brown spots all over their hides" [104], other physically odd peoples
in Thompson's books get more respect.

CAPTAIN SALT sets up a dividing line between "natives" and seemingly normal
people--even those normal people who are native to where they live. Salt
wears special clothes for "impressing the natives" [28]. The Lavalanders
are "immense and thunderous-looking natives" [58]. The common desert and
jungle people of Ozamaland are "natives," even to the Ozamandarins who
were, by all evidence, born there [258 et seq.]. The Leopard Men are among
the book's "natives" [87].

In CAPTAIN SALT "native" appears to mean not "of local birth," but to be a
synonym for "physically unlike Europeans." Thompson never applies the word
"natives" to the "blue-eyed, handsome" Peakenspire islanders, as exotic as
they are. Ato asks of the Leopard Men, "Are they...black or brown?" [104]
Salt, overeager for a specimen, mistakes Tandy for a Leopard Man youth.
"'It's nothing of the kind,' Nikobo contradicted him sharply. 'Can't you
see he is white...?'" [107--cf. 99]. Even a hippo who's been speaking
English for only five months has picked up Thompson's distinction between
"native" and "white."

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  9:39 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] CAPTAIN SALT timing

J. L . Bell:
>Furthermore, it's clear that the old pirate crew hasn't reunited in that
>time. Ato also speaks of having been to Oz only once [75]. As Nathan DeHoff
>pointed out when we discussed WISHING HORSE, both those statements present
>a contradiction with the pirates' presence together in that book's Emerald
>City parade. I can think of several explanations, some quite complex:
> * CAPTAIN SALT actually took place before WISHING HORSE, starting
>four years after the events of PIRATES, but was for some reason published
>afterward. In that case, Salt's honored place in the parade would imply
>that Ozma heartily approved of his actions in CAPTAIN SALT. But we'd have
>to wonder what became of Tandy and Nikobo.

Maybe they were busy in Ozamaland? I generally prefer to think that the FF
books all take place in their publication order, but there really isn't much
about the last few Thompsons that requires them occurring in any particular
order. We do know that OZOPLANING takes place after CAPTAIN SALT, and
comments in SILVER PRINCESS indicate that the story occurs three years after
WISHING HORSE, and six years after PURPLE PRINCE.

Speaking of SILVER PRINCESS, it starts in a very similar manner to CAPTAIN
SALT. Both start with a reunion between the main characters of an earlier
book, which was supposed to have occurred six months after the other story,
but had been delayed for some reason. Both books have the characters
essentially trying to reenact their last adventure. The idea of reunions
seems to be a common one in later Thompson books, with the party in WISHING
HORSE, and the adventure of the WIZARD cast in OZOPLANING.

> * Salt and Ato were in Oz for Ozma's parade but suffered such an
>amnesia from Skamperoo's spell that they remember nothing about their
>visit.

That was an idea that had occurred to me before. I've considered writing a
story around it, but it hasn't really gotten anywhere.

Nathan

From:  "Nathan Mulac DeHoff" <DinnerBell at t...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  9:42 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] CAPTAIN SALT Patrippany Island

J.  L. Bell:
>Second, why did the Leopard Men who inhabit that island suddenly paddle
>away less than two weeks before the CRESCENT MOON arrived, only to be
>engulfed in a "great hurricane" [105]?

Although unstated in the text, I wonder whether Boglodore might have been
responsible for the hurricane and/or the Leopard Men's odd behavior.
Perhaps he killed off the race so there would be no danger of their harming
Tandy. Boglodore mentions nothing about this when he describes his deeds to
the Captain and Chunum, however, so maybe there was some other odd force at
work.

Nathan

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sat Jul 6, 2002  10:27 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Tarara

Though the first thing we learn about the continent of Tarara is that it's
divided between Amaland and Ozamaland, closer inspection reveals three
societies or castes contending against one another.

The dominant society at the start of CAPTAIN SALT is "the thousand Nobles
and their families who live in the White City" of Om. They define the laws
and control the army. Only they are said to be literate and settled [201].
Though nominally ruled by a hereditary kingship, the real powers are
actually Didjabo, Lotho, Teebo, and the six other Ozamandarins or Judges,
ironically called "the Nine Faithful Servants of the People" [258]. (The
only other individual named in this society is Tandy's tutor,
Woodjabegoodja [141].) Both the Ozamandarins and Thompson refer to all the
rest of Ozamaland's population as "natives," as opposed to these
"Nobles."

For at least the last ten years, the Ozamandarins have been in league with
Boglodore, the Old Man of the Jungle. He's an "immense wrinkled old
native," thus labeled as from a different society or caste. He appears
"clad only in a turban and loin cloth" [260], while the Ozamandarins wear
"square hats" [204]. Boglodore seems to represent a jungle society on
Tarara. We can guess how large that society is when Boglodore says, "I was
promised one tenth of Ozamaland, and I am here to claim as my share the
entire jungle reach of this country" [261]. So either jungle covers about a
tenth of Ozamaland, or a tenth of the population lives in the jungle. And
Boglodore seems to embody those people's hope for autonomy.

Boglodore has some magical powers, but they can't be strong or he wouldn't
need to work with the Ozamandarins. Only after Ato renders the Judges
harmless can Boglodore dispose of them. The people of Ozamaland think the
Old Man of the Jungle can predict the future [203], but he himself fulfills
his only known prophecy. His real powers, it appears, involve jungle
animals: he gives Nikobo the power of speech and maternal feelings for
Tandy [289], and he controls Umbo, whom he paradoxically calls "my famous,
never-known or seen flying umbrellaphant" [260]. In addition, Boglodore has
the cunning to double-cross the Mandarins and lay the groundwork for
restoring Tandy. Presumably he plans to win the king's favor by bringing
him back at the right time, probably achieving independence or dominance
for the jungle people.

The third society on Tarara, and probably the largest in terms of
population and territory, are the nomadic tribes. Tandy has grown up
believing the Amas and Zamas are enemies, but he's not sure why [203]. The
only differences we can see between them are that the Zamas wear white and
ride elephants and camels while the Amas wear gray and ride horses. The
tribes may therefore extend across a nearly arbitrary political boundary,
as we hear about in Afghanistan and Pakistan's "tribal areas" today. As
with the jungle natives, we meet only one desert tribesman from Ozamaland:
Chunum, whom Scott Hutchins noted was one of the rare favorable portrayals
of an Arab (or someone generally from Muslim south-central Asia) in
Thompson's works.

One dividing line among Ozamaland's three societies might be dialect.
Didjabo refers to the country's people as "Zamians" [258], Boglodore as
"Zamans" [289], and Chunum as "Zamen" [275]. Of course, Tandy referred to
them as "Zamas" [201], so that's probably just Thompson's carelessness.
[But you gotta admire the level of carelessness an author needs to come up
with four different ways to refer to the same people.]

At the end of the book Chunum, "head of a thousand tribes" [282], makes
this declaration:

he himself would be responsible for peace along
the border between Amaland and Ozamaland, that
the Greys had long desired to be friends with
the Whites, but trouble had been stirred up by
the Ozamandarins so they might have the credit
of protecting the country.

This claim seems plausible, given the duplicity we've seen from Didjabo.
But Chunum's speech must come as a surprise to Tandy, who's just promised
his people that Ozians "would soon arrive to help them...repel the
dangerous invasions of the Greys" [299]. The young king's so anxious to
ship off that he doesn't notice that Chunum may just have stabbed him in
the back.

When Chunum first met Tandy, he said, "Too long have the city dwellers
ruled this great liberty-loving land"--a sign that the nomads have become
restless under the Nobles [282]. The old man seems to have been speaking to
many desert nomads, both Zamas and Amas. Being in Om at the crucial time
when Tandy returns with no loyalty to any local faction, Chunum seizes his
opportunity and attaches himself to the king. That helps him achieve
probably greater success than he imagined.

By the end of the book, Chunum has Tandy's mandate to rule in the White
City and Ozamaland, plus the desert tribesmen's loyalty throughout
Ozamaland and perhaps across Tarara. The Ozamandarins are gone, the royal
aunts cowed, and the king absent and reluctant to return. Chunum no longer
fears the jungle natives' champion: "I expect Boglodore does not find this
country healthy after the pretty story he has just told us," he tells Salt
[292]. In sum, Chunum may now hold all the political power on Tarara.

What we see in CAPTAIN SALT, this reading suggests, is not really the
restoration of Ozamaland's royal dynasty in Tandy. It's a silent coup
against the entire Noble society and their erstwhile jungle allies in favor
of complete dominance by the desert nomads. If Ozma does start sending
Ozian settlers to Tarara, they're probably going to encounter some trouble.

There are a couple of other mysteries about Tarara. First, if 90% of
Ozamaland and perhaps even more of Amaland is desert and "a ship has never
touched our shores" [114], what's the basis of the continent's economy? How
do people survive?

Second, Tandy says, "the great continent of Tarara is divided into two
large, long countries. Ozamaland is on the east coast, and Amaland on the
west coast" [201]. The CRESCENT MOON is sailing from west to east. Why then
doesn't it reach Amaland first?

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Sun Jul 7, 2002  8:54 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT Tazander Tazah

I have to assume Ruth Plumly Thompson liked Kipling because she sure Kipled
in CAPTAIN SALT's plotline about young Tandy. The wild boy being raised by
wild animals comes from THE JUNGLE BOOK (and several other archetypes)
while the spoiled boy being matured by work on a sailing vessel is straight
out of CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS.

But there's a big difference between those tales and Tandy's track in
CAPTAIN SALT, I realized during this reading. Both THE JUNGLE BOOK and
CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS are about learning the rules of a society--of the
jungle or a ship. In contrast, Roger's approach to educating Tandy is to
FREE him from the rules he's been following all his life.

Thompson tells us right away Tandy has "dignity" [107]; is "a naturally
sober and solemn little boy" [119]; and has a "stiff, precise little mind"
[149]. His "whole life had been spent in study and reflection" [141]. He
doesn't recognize the words for "fun" [144] and "play" [146].

Of course, the flip side of that is that Tandy acts "haughtily" [107] and
treats his rescuers as "inferiors" [140]. King Ato calls the boy's behavior
"a case of ingrowing Royalitis," and sniffs, in a line that should be in an
RKO comedy of the 1930s if it isn't already, "Watch out for him. . . .  he's
probably real important to himself" [121].

At first Roger directs Tandy to his own favorite guide to life, MAXIMS FOR
MONARCHS. He announces that it's "a book of great authority and antiquity
that has been used by the Rulers of Oz and Ev and the Nonestic Islands
these many thousand years" [141], which could make it one of the oldest
books in the Nonestic region. (Like other collections of wisdom, however,
it probably grew over time to its codified state.)

When Tandy briefly resists, Roger attacks the boy's self-confidence through
an effective but quite illogical argument: Ozamaland must not be an ancient
land worthy of respect since "it's not even been discovered, and whoever
has been there?" [143] Of course, Roger's the ignorant one in this
conversation--the people of Tarara have clearly discovered and been to
Ozamaland. And Salt wants to get there.

Finally, Roger resorts to the marine hierarchy that informs CAPTAINS
COURAGEOUS: "Samuel Salt is Captain of this ship,...which makes him seventy
times as important as you, King Pins" [143]. At this news Tandy, so used to
being told what to do, suddenly gives in and has an identity crisis:
"Then while I'm on this ship, I'm not a King at all,"
said Tandy wonderingly. "Then what am I? What am I
supposed to do?" The little boy looked puzzled and
positively frightened. [143-4]

At that point Roger tosses his rulebook out the window. Not literally, but
he never mentions it again until page 267, when he says, "What's this?
Humph! MAXIMS FOR MONARCHS. Well, what in topsails do we care for that
musty volume?" Roger seems to recognize that Tandy's already been trained
as a king, that his royal rules have survived even a stint in the jungle.
But Tazander Tazah hasn't been trained as a person.

"I can draw pictures and ride an elephant," Tandy says hopefully when the
Read Bird asks what he can do. And Roger's wise enough to hide his smile
and say, "Good!" [144] As it turns out, Tandy's artistic talent is enough
to win over even Captain Salt and make him an important member of the crew.
But first Roger has to free him to use that talent.

"Just begin by thinking of something you want to do. Think about it hard
and then DO it," the Read Bird tells the boy [149]. The first thing Tandy
wants to do is see Nikobo and bring her a treat--a sign of his inner
generosity and loyalty. Then he realizes "There was no one to tell him to
go to bed, so he just plain wouldn't" [151]. Tandy gets art supplies out of
Peter's old sea chest (they must have been on the MOON before Peter climbed
aboard), stays up late drawing, and is on his way to "being a person" [159].

Tandy's change of personality is quite sudden, quickly shifting the book
back from his psychological growth to various physical adventures. But by
Thompson's standards this is deep stuff. Over the next chapter the young
king still has to make some adjustments. After the captain makes him artist
and cabin boy "with extra rations and pay" [!], Tandy tries to "wait on the
table" at dinner, only to be told to sit down with the rest of the crew
[165-6]. This is exactly the opposite of the lessons in CAPTAINS
COURAGEOUS, which involve learning how to fit into the hierarchy of the
sea.

Within a couple more episodes, Tandy starts to worry about going home again
[174, 199, 239]. When the shore of Ozamaland appears, he retreats into
MAXIMS FOR MONARCHS, trying to figure out his duty [266]. From then on,
Tandy is greatly serious once more. He insists on taking nothing from the
CRESCENT MOON but the leopard skin he wore onto it [271], then presents
himself to his people by calling on the rules he's always followed: "You
are my lawful subjects" [273].

But then comes the law's pincer. Didjabo, seeing that his initial plot has
failed but that he can blame Tandy's kidnapping on Boglodore and maintain
power, insists, "It is the law of the land that the nine Ozamandarins shall
guard the life and preserve the health of the country's sovereign" [278].
At that point Tandy remembers another piece of advice from Roger [225], and
gives the judge a "a fast and sudden poke in the nose" [279]. By combining
the instincts and actions of a "salt seagoing sailor" with those of a king,
Tandy makes himself into a real king instead of a figurehead. "The King is
the King!" shouts Chunum [279].

Most Thompson Oz books end with a royal dynasty restored at the end. I've
gotten so used to that pattern that I easily forget that Tandy DOESN'T stay
on his throne at the end of CAPTAIN SALT, but goes back to sailing the
Nonestic. Just when Tandy has become king for real, he gives up power for
his own pleasure on the sea. Roger's lessons about "Think about something
you want to do and then DO it" thus trump the socialization of Ozamaland.

Can Tandy keep from growing up further? I think the young heroes of both
THE JUNGLE BOOK and CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS suffer through the death of one of
their mentors, a major step toward maturity. Tandy doesn't have to do that.
Though he lost his parents in infancy, he still has Nikobo, Salt, Ato, and
Roger, and they seem to expect to live for hundreds more years. Thompson's
version of Kipling's tales can thus have a uniquely Ozzy ending--a
coming-of-age story in which no one actually has to come of age.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne at a...>
Date:  Sun Jul 7, 2002  8:54 pm
Subject:  Re: [Nonestica] CAPTAIN SALT Ozamandarins

Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> Hi All--
> As a point of pedantry, it's not the "Mandarin dialect" under any
> definition of dialect. What we Westerners call "Mandarin" is a
> language, not a dialect, and is properly called either "Zhongwen" or
> "Potunghua." It's a tonal language, with four tones--no tone, rising
> tone, falling tone, and a tone that falls, then rises.
>
> Cantonese (and I'm sorry I don't know what it's really called) has nine
> tones, and is no more related to Potunghua than is Vietnamese (tieng
> Viet), which has six tones.

As far as I know, the various flavors of Chinese are more related to
each other than to Vietnamese.

And the question of whether to call them "languages" or "dialects" is an
old one, and I am not aware that either side has achieved total victory.
While it is true that they are completely mutually unintelligible, which
comes down on the "language" side, they all have one common written
form, which scores for "dialect". The plain fact is that the
traditional taxonomy simply doesn't accommodate the case.

--
John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Mon Jul 8, 2002  1:31 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT mysteries

Nathan DeHoff wrote:
<<I generally prefer to think that the FF books all take place in their
publication order, but there really isn't much about the last few Thompsons
that requires them occurring in any particular order. We do know that
OZOPLANING takes place after CAPTAIN SALT, and comments in SILVER PRINCESS
indicate that the story occurs three years after WISHING HORSE, and six
years after PURPLE PRINCE.>>

This is starting to sound like a logic puzzle: If PURPLE PRINCE took place
six years before SILVER PRINCESS, and OJO has to follow YELLOW KNIGHT but
precede WISHING HORSE,...

I, too, think Baum and Thompson meant for readers to assume events in the
Oz books occurred approximately in the order of publication. It should take
a big discrepancy and multiple clues to make us shift books out of that
sequence. I don't think the casual mention of Ato and Salt in WISHING HORSE
is at the level that requires such drastic action when everything else in
CAPTAIN SALT says that visit and reunion simply didn't happen.

WISHING HORSE itself doesn't show the ex-pirates after Ozma's parade; we
don't even see a reunion of Roger and Pigasus. That could support two
interpretations:
1) They never came; Thompson mentioned them simply out of loyalty
to her characters.
2) They left early, thus missing the moment when Chalk wished Ozma
back on the throne. In that case, their memories of that visit to Oz might
be erased or addled by overlapping images of Ozma and Skamperoo. Still, it
would be very odd for Ato's subjects not to have heard about his planned
trip to Oz in Salt's company, and to have reminded him of it afterwards.

<<Speaking of SILVER PRINCESS, it starts in a very similar manner to
CAPTAIN SALT. Both start with a reunion between the main characters of an
earlier book, which was supposed to have occurred six months after the
other story, but had been delayed for some reason. Both books have the
characters essentially trying to reenact their last adventure. The idea of
reunions seems to be a common one in later Thompson books, with the party
in WISHING HORSE, and the adventure of the WIZARD cast in
OZOPLANING.>>

Interesting point. We know Thompson sometimes felt she was at the bottom of
her barrel of inspiration in this period, having an especially hard time
with OZOPLANING. After OJO she seems to have felt she'd run out of
important Baum characters who hadn't had their own book yet (neglecting the
Shaggy Man). While she produced some of her best stories in the 1930s, she
also revisited several old groups of characters (as opposed to old single
characters).

<<Although unstated in the text, I wonder whether Boglodore might have been
responsible for the hurricane and/or the Leopard Men's odd behavior.
Perhaps he killed off the race so there would be no danger of their harming
Tandy. Boglodore mentions nothing about this when he describes his deeds
to the Captain and Chunum, however, so maybe there was some other odd force
at work.>>

Boglodore seems to be the most likely suspect of all those in CAPTAIN SALT,
but the case against him isn't terribly strong. If he'd wanted to get rid
of the Leopard Men, he could presumably have done so right away before they
could possibly harm Tandy.

Boglodore tells the Ozamandarins that he'd returned to Patrippany Island
and "found no trace or sign of the boy," so he concludes "he has
undoubtedly been killed by the savages or the wild beasts of the jungle"
[260]. That could well be a lie; we know Boglodore is trying to run a
double-cross on the nine judges.

But let's imagine Boglodore had flown to Patrippany, planning to bring
Tandy back to Ozamaland as a rescuer, thus securing the young king's
loyalty for himself. On the island he'd have found no trace of Tandy, the
hippo he'd enchanted, and the Leopard Men. The cage of saplings he'd built
to protect Tandy had been chopped open by an ax, and all the Leopard Men's
canoes were gone.

What could Boglodore have done? We know he could give animals the power of
speech, so he might have done that for some nearby birds or beasts and
interrogated them about what had happened. He'd presumably feel safe about
anyone else from Ozamaland reaching the island because they have no ships,
but his trump card in the power struggles back home would be missing. At
that point he'd have to throw his lot in with the Ozamandarins and try to
get the best deal from them.

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "Ruth Berman" <berma005 at m...>
Date:  Tue Jul 9, 2002  11:12 am
Subject:  reunions in oz

Nathan DeHoff & J.L. Bell: Maybe a way of reconciling the statements in
"Captain Salt" that Ato & Roger haven't seen him/he's been absorbed in
research & didn't know how the time was going and the "Wishing Horse"
statement that they attended Ozma's birthday party together would be to
assume that that visit was so hasty, and so much taken up with the
celebration stuff for Ozma and for Skamperoo and the explanations afterward
of the attempted coup/thwarting of the coup that they really didn't get a
chance to sit down and have a catch-up-on-everything conversation, and so
were left with the feeling that it didn't count either as time off from
research or as time together.

Ruth Berman

From:  David Hulan <dhulan at w...>
Date:  Tue Jul 9, 2002  10:51 pm
Subject:  Pronunciation of Patrippany
 
J.L.:
> I've previously pronounced the name of the island where Boglodore left
> Tandy with the emphasis on the first and third syllables, the same as in
> "patrimony." But characters make such a big deal about the word the name
> containing the word "trip" [98, 124] that I now believe Thompson
> accented
> the second and fourth syllables, and was probably inspired by the New
> Jersey town of Parsippany.

I think that "Patrippany" is accented on the second syllable only. It's
a general rule (although often broken, as is the usual case with English
spelling) that a doubled consonant in a word of three or more syllables
indicates that the preceding syllable is accented. If it were intended
to be pronounced PAT-ri-PAN-y then it would be spelled
"Patripany."

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Fri Jul 19, 2002  11:38 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT animals

Like Nathan DeHoff, I have a few more comments to make on CAPTAIN SALT, but
since I soon leave on my roundabout trip to the Munchkin Convention, I
won't get them all out by the end of this month. So I may as well start.

Salt, a naturalist who's presumably studied the subject, tells Roger, "To
my knowledge, only animals in Oz, a few in Ev, and you on the Octagon Isle
have the gift of speech" [95; cf. Chunum on 284]. To this list we add
Nikobo, but only because Boglodore has laid a spell on her. (Her response
to learning this fact is touching: "frightened lest she forget Tandy's
language, she began talking rapidly to herself" [292].) We should also list
Breakfast and Pigasus from PIRATES, but they're clearly extraordinary
beasts.

That pattern raises three issues. First, there seems to be a definite caste
difference between talking and non-talking animals. The latter can be
killed and eaten with impunity. Ato threatens to have Roger "plucked and
roasted," a dire threat since he speaks on the same page of cooking fowl
[24--cf. the "roast fowl" on 295]. Roger himself hunts other flying
creatures [213-4, 218-9]. He seizes the Mo-fi [220], then teaches it to
say, "Ship ahoy!" but that seem to be more like a parrot imitating sounds
than a creature understanding words [237].

Second, Thompson says that in this part of fairyland talking animals are
rarer than immortality. Ato says, "We mayn't be killed, being of magic
birth" [50]. Alberif reports, "we never tire, grow old or have illness of
any kind" [193]. The Ozamandarins can't be destroyed and will spend
hundreds of years at the bottom of the sea [295--presumably so will Tandy's
vanished parents]. Baum seems to have worked the other way: showing animals
talking in Oz and Ev, only later arriving at immortality for humans.

Finally, we have to wonder whether, when Samuel Salt guides the CRESCENT
MOON into the Winkie River some holiday hence, all his specimens WILL start
to talk. Will the baby elephant that's small enough for him to lift and the
baby camel that's small enough for Tandy [304] demand to be taken back to
their mothers? Will Sally tell Ozma everything Salt has done in her name?
Will the captain have to free all his specimens on moral grounds? Will they
face a choice of staying away from their homes or never speaking again?

J. L. Bell JnoLBell at c...

From:  "J. L. Bell" <JnoLBell at c...>
Date:  Tue Jul 23, 2002  12:50 pm
Subject:  CAPTAIN SALT animals

Charles Phipps wrote:
<<> Finally, we have to wonder whether, when Samuel Salt guides the CRESCENT
> MOON into the Winkie River some holiday hence, all his specimens WILL start
> to talk. Will the baby elephant that's small enough for him to lift and the
> baby camel that's small enough for Tandy [304] demand to be taken back to
> their mothers? Will Sally tell Ozma everything Salt has done in her name?
> Will the captain have to free all his specimens on moral grounds?  Will they
> face a choice of staying away from their homes or never speaking again?
...
You must also unfortunately recognize that if they were to be returned to
their parents and families on their island there is the very large chance
that they would suddenly lose their ability to talk.>>

I believe the last question above shows that I'd already recognized that
likelihood.

<<The unfortunate problem I see with this particular difficulty my dear
John is the fact that the baby elephant, camel, and the rest will likely be
in Samuel Salt's care for some time that they might indeed come to look at
Mr. Salt as their natural parent.>>

Some animals can indeed imprint on a human rather than on one of their own
species--but only when they're just hatched, I think. These specimens seem
to be older than that. Whether or not they can speak immediately, I agree
with Nathan DeHoff that they're probably aware that they're away from their
parents.

Thompson presents Salt's captives, with the exception of the Lavaland baby,
as quickly and happily adapting to their new life with the captain. Sally
curls up in his pipe, the Mo-fi learns some words. Even the Seewegian boy,
from a fairly advanced culture (tools, written language, etc.), seems to
become contented to float all day in a jar inside the CRESCENT MOON's hold.
I can't help but think that presentation would be wishfulness on the
historian's part.

<<Any thoughts John on whether the spell of immortality will be
extended to folk on the isles? Is it also possible no spell of
immortality exists on these lands but instead the people are just
much longer lived than on Oz?>>

Despite the speeches Thompson gives to characters from outside Oz when she
wants to convince her readers they'll always be around, I'm not convinced
that many people in the Nonestic world are unusually long-lived. According
to Baum's books, the people of Mo and Oz are exceptional in this regard.
Practical immortality would, I suspect, cause psychological and social
differences that we don't glimpse. And as to the mechanism that may have
pro